Miller v. Bonta 9th Ckt "assault weapons": Held for Duncan result 1-26-24

[AbrahamBurden]

Does that mean a higher court will eventually look those issues?

Yes. In this case it's the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals; you can check on this board on the progress of those cases. There's a sense of pessimism on how the 9th will rule on them because even after Trump swapping out leftoid judges for rightoid ones, the balance of judges on that court still leans anti-gun rather than pro-gun.

[GetMeCoffee]

With the magazine ruling, he placed the stay himself, but after a week had passed. He may actually have placed the stay himself on the ammo ban also, but I seem to remember it was an emergency stay from the 9th. But the ammo one didn’t last too long, maybe a day or so.

As I recall, Benitez denied the request to stay the ruling enjoining the ammo background check law (I assume you were referring to that). That allowed the state to request the emergency stay from the 9th.

[Cartierusm]

I'm coming into this very, very late. The way it was explained to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. If the assault weapon laws in this case are over turned by the court, even by a few hours, if in those few hours you remove your bullet button/patriot button and leave all the evil features on your gun so that it's a real AR-15 again, then it gets grandfathered in so to speak. So if a stay happens after a few hours you have that time to covert your gun to it's original form. They would have to create new assault weapon type laws to re-ban that rifle you just changed back to it's original state. And those new assault weapon laws could not be written to reflect any of those old laws as they were deemed unconstitutional. Meaning they would have to come up with something completely new to ban that rifle again which would be nearly impossible.

[CandG]

I'm coming into this very, very late. The way it was explained to me and please correct me if I'm wrong. If the assault weapon laws in this case are over turned by the court, even by a few hours, if in those few hours you remove your bullet button/patriot button and leave all the evil features on your gun so that it's a real AR-15 again, then it gets grandfathered in so to speak. So if a stay happens after a few hours you have that time to covert your gun to it's original form. They would have to create new assault weapon type laws to re-ban that rifle you just changed back to it's original state. And those new assault weapon laws could not be written to reflect any of those old laws as they were deemed unconstitutional. Meaning they would have to come up with something completely new to ban that rifle again which would be nearly impossible.

From a couple pages earlier in the thread:

Here are some of the many possibilities of how a "Freedom Week" (Benitez overturns law, then issues a stay, effective some amount of time later) in this case hypothetically might play out:

• The stay somehow includes a mandate that DOJ allow weapons acquired during Freedom Week to be registered.
• He only stays the portion of his ruling that applies to the ban on acquisition (but not the ban on possession) of unregistered AWs while the appeal(s) play out in CA9.
• He stays the entire ruling, and all AWs acquired during freedom week become illegal to possess immediately after Freedom Week, forcing owners of said weapons to disassemble them, reconfigure them to be legal, or be felons. This would be a bizarre choice for him to make, but it's still possible.
• He issues a stay (of any sort), but the 9th circus orders another stay or injunction that overrides all or part of it.

Some other possibilities, outside of the "Freedom Week" possibilities above, could be:

• He includes an immediate stay as part of his ruling, thus no freedom week.
• He doesn't issue a stay at all, but the 9th Circus does.
• Neither he nor the 9th Circus issue a stay, and we have a "Freedom Indeterminate-Amount-of-Time" until such time as the appeal gets decided. Incredibly unlikely, but theoretically possible.
• His ruling doesn't even strike down the portion of the law that applies to the ban on acquisition, thus mooting this entire conversation and making us all very sad.

TLDR; there are many possible outcomes, and nobody can know how what will happen until it happens.

[jwkincal]

If the assault weapon laws in this case are over turned by the court, even by a few hours, if in those few hours you remove your bullet button/patriot button and leave all the evil features on your gun so that it's a real AR-15 again, then it gets grandfathered in so to speak. So if a stay happens after a few hours you have that time to covert your gun to it's original form. They would have to create new assault weapon type laws to re-ban that rifle you just changed back to it's original state.

Not accurate, no.

The reason that "Freedom Week" was a thing with the magazines was due to the fact that possession of magazines wasn't already regulated. Benitez said, "yeah, all of these magazine-ban laws are unconstitutional, not just these new ones criminalizing possession, but all of the old ones making sale, manufacture, and distribution too!" Suddenly it became legal to acquire them again, and so many folks did... once the enjoinder against enforcement of the existing laws was stayed (by Benitez at the behest of the 9th Circuit by request of the AG), the clock got reset to where it was right before the new laws (which DID criminalize possession) went into effect. Thus, possession is currently legal (as it was originally) but manufacture, acquisition and transfer are not legal (as it was originally); meaning that if you got your mags during "Freedom Week" you're protected from prosecution for possession because it was legal when you did it.

The difference here is that possession of an AW is already regulated. AWs must be registered in order to be legally possessed. Anything that you did to your rifle during an injunction and prior to a stay might be legal in that moment, but once the enjoiner was stayed, and everything returned to the previous condition while on appeal, then whatever you possessed would need to be registered in a condition which matched what the registry depicts, or you would be exposed to prosecution.

It's possible that Benitez could write something specific about the new BBAW regs, as they are a particularly nasty variety of BS, but I don't know how much focus was made of that particular clusterf**k in the course of the proceedings nor do we have any specific insight into what he is cooking up for this... our endgame is the challenge of the entire AW regulation system, so minutiae about the newest pile of crap legislation is maybe a bit off topic.

That's my reading anyway; there will be other opinions, but I would advise that you manage expectations appropriately here... the magazine injunction was a special case, there will not be something similar in the AW space.

[Cartierusm]

Ah gotcha. Thanks for the info.

[CandG]

As with anything in life; Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

But also, plan for the best

If we get a "Freedom week", or a "Freedom Day", or a "Freedom 7 Minutes", you don't want to be caught with your pants down, being the guy who's frantically checking the marketplace for the parts you need.

[Cartierusm]

Hmm so I could order some new lowers and that would qualify?

Also, I'm not clear on something. I understand that any rifles that I have already that are legal with the patriot button thingy won't magically become legal during a new expected freedom week, but as said previously new acquisitions would be. I take this to mean any new guns purchased during freedom week, but that new rifle would still fall under the same law that makes my already owned gun illegal.

[CandG]

Hmm so I could order some new lowers and that would qualify?

If you're short on lowers, then sure.

But I'm thinking more along the lines of normal grips, normal mag releases, normal stocks, normal flash hiders, etc... whatever you haven't been allowed to put on your favorite semiauto firearms the last few years, it would be good to have that stuff already ready to go, in case the best case scenario happens. Don't rely on being able to find those parts at your LGS during that potentially-very-short window of opportunity.

Also, I'm not clear on something. I understand that any rifles that I have already that are legal with the patriot button thingy won't magically become legal during a new expected freedom week, but as said previously new acquisitions would be. I take this to mean any new guns purchased during freedom week, but that new rifle would still fall under the same law that makes my already owned gun illegal.

I'm not clear on your question. "Acquire" means to "buy" OR to "make" OR to "modify from something you already own". There would be no distinction, legally speaking, betweeen something you bought during a hypothetical freedom week, or something you made during that week, or a weapon you already owned but modified during that week.

In any case, you're thinking too hard about this - the fact is, we really don't know, because most of the answers you're looking for will be contained in the Court's order and/or subsequent stays, none of which hasn't been written yet. So it's all just speculation at this point, and it's entirely possible that there won't be any "freedom week" at all, rendering this whole hypothetical conversation pointless.

[Cartierusm]

In a few of posts above it was saying my already owned rifle with a patriot button would not fall under that court decision. What I meant was during a freedom week I would remove my patriot button thereby modifying the rifle that already has all the evil features on it and that falls in line with what you just said. So during a freedom week if I remove my patriot button would that rifle be legal after a stay is enacted?

Sorry if I'm missing the point.

[CandG]

In a few of posts above it was saying my already owned rifle with a patriot button would not fall under that court decision. What I meant was during a freedom week I would remove my patriot button thereby modifying the rifle that already has all the evil features on it and that falls in line with what you just said. So during a freedom week if I remove my patriot button would that rifle be legal after a stay is enacted?

Sorry if I'm missing the point.

Ok I understand your question now, thanks.

My response is the same though - we really just don't know, and can't know, until the Order and/or subsequent stays get published.

In my opinion, there would be no distinction between already-owned weapons being modified during "freedom week", and new weapons purchased during "freedom week"; it would make no sense for those to be treated differently. Modifying an already-owned weapon into an AW, and buying a new AW, both fall under the same "acquiring an AW" category of law.

So one can reasonably assume, in my opinion, that anything you'd be allowed to buy, you'd also be allowed to make from your already-owned firearms.

[Cartierusm]

Ah ok COOL. Here's hoping! I appreciate the help.

[CandG]

Ah ok COOL. Here's hoping! I appreciate the help.

FWIW, during the Duncan (large-capacity magazine) "freedom week", people were equally allowed to buy new LCMs or to make them from their already-owned magazines (removing rivets from their 10/30 mags, etc.)

[Cartierusm]

That I remember. No mags around me were to be had and found out too late that they extended it to actual internet purchases.

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https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.casd.642089/gov.uscourts.casd.642089.112.0.pdf