80% rules

[Charlie50]

Release of Liability

You can NOT cut any material for your buddy.. YOu can bark orders and you can stop HIM from cutting material but you can not move any material out for him... From 80% Paperweight to 100% firearm it is his bag err LOWER...

I am with you on this. I have often thought that if I was to assist a friend with a build, AR or AK I would snap photos of him bending/ cutting the flat/ paperweight and possibly prepare something to cover my a.. that indicates that he did all of the machining work, and I only provided visual, technical and verbal advise. That I am to be held harmless in the event of any disaster, and that he will bring to a qualified gunsmith before test firing. I know to some this sounds over the top but I am not getting my butt in a serious sling just to help out. BTW it might be good to post this question on the Legal 2nd forum and get some input from some legal types.

[wash]

I think that interpretation of the law is a bit paranoid.

Certainly anyone building from an 80% should know enough about the law to not say anything stupid if questioned about it.

Something as simple as "California laws are so complex that I refer all questions about my guns to my attorney" can keep you out of hot water.

It is "safe" to follow a policy of all metal must be removed by the owner but the law does not explicitly state that.

You are not going to get in trouble if you let a friend mill a clean up pass to make the FCG pocket pretty.

Now if they find you with 50 lowers milled out and the "builders" nowhere around, a district attorney could probably make a case against you but the traditional build party kind of activity is pretty much safe even if you receive a little help with milling, bending, riveting or whatever.

The ATF and CADOJ are not out there looking for home builders to bust. It's legal activity up until the point where it becomes commercial manufacture or NFA.

If you are smart, a little bit under the radar and not helping other people too much, the ATF and local police shouldn't bother with you unless you have other issues.

I'm not saying to go out and do illegal things, just don't feel guilty about helping a person if you can find a way to take their legal reasoning and use it to justify the legality of helping someone out. What they don't know won't hurt them.

[Seesm]

Wash once it's a functioning firearm you could do that "clean up" pass yes... But until the last 20% is done by the owner I do not think you can do it... But having said that I get what your saying.....

[yari]

so hows this work? i cnc a billet 80% lower have my customer come to the shop to pick it up, except, its set in a vice xy and z axis set waiting for him/her to push the green button. whos doing what?

[wash]

The last thing I'm going to say is that all this talk about functioning makes sense but since when have our laws made sense?

I think ATF just ruled that Brillo pads are an NFA silencer. They ruled that an 80% with the selector hole drilled was a firearm too.

Once something is a firearm it gets treated like any other. If you want to get an AR 15 fire control pocket carved in to the stock of the lever action your daddy left to you, that's a job a gunsmith can legally do. Once your 80% crosses that line in the sand that ATF drew, game on.

There are consequences to it, if you drill the selector hole in an 80%, then put it in your pocket and walk in to a GFSZ, you could get charged with three or four crimes and there are ******* district attorneys that would try that.

If the government doesn't have to play fair and make sense, neither do we.

So CYA, don't get caught and make sure you push everything to the point of absurdity and then push it again.

[kcstott]

Wash
Well stated

[Cokebottle]

so hows this work? i cnc a billet 80% lower have my customer come to the shop to pick it up, except, its set in a vice xy and z axis set waiting for him/her to push the green button. whos doing what?

That has been the general feeling, but it can be touchy.

A couple of years ago, a shop with a CNC was nailed by the BATFE for manufacturing without an 07FFL.
They were simply hosting build parties, but the general feeling is that it was a business that was allowing manufacturing to take place on the premises in an area that is not normally open to the public.

IE: Seems the BATFE's opinion was that the party attendees became (unpaid) "employees".

Of course, this would not be a risk for a private party hosting a BP in their garage.

[Infidel 1776]

I need to rent some mill time! Anyone know anyone/anywhere?

[wash]

Techshop or look in the services offered forum.

[Jeepers]

That has been the general feeling, but it can be touchy.

A couple of years ago, a shop with a CNC was nailed by the BATFE for manufacturing without an 07FFL.
They were simply hosting build parties, but the general feeling is that it was a business that was allowing manufacturing to take place on the premises in an area that is not normally open to the public.

IE: Seems the BATFE's opinion was that the party attendees became (unpaid) "employees".

Of course, this would not be a risk for a private party hosting a BP in their garage.

think you are talking about KT Ord..... heres his website http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/ and here a list of court docs from his page ...

Latest info regarding USA v. 1911
Celata - Plaintiff's Verified Complaint for Forfeiture In REM - PDF - 5.7Mb
Brief in Support of Motion for Relief from Order - PDF - 500Kb
Exhibit A to Brief in Support of Mx for Relief - PDF - 25Kb
Exhibit B to Brief in Support of Mx for Relief - PDF - 34Kb
Exhibit C to Brief in Support of Mx for Relief - PDF - 48Kb
Exhibit D to Brief in Support of Mx for Relief - PDF - 700Kb
Motion for relief from order - PDF - 31Kb
Order dismissing case - PDF - 22Kb
US Voluntary Mx to Dismiss Civil Forfeiture - PDF - 30Kb
Affidavit of Attorney Fees and Expenses - PDF - 220Kb
US Response in Opposition to Celata's Brief for Relief - PDF - 170Kb
Celata Letter - PDF - 32Kb

he still has not been completely finish with this after all these years, and there are also others that where in that case that still cant talk about it untill its all over ..... i for one would not run a CNC service, just too risky that a ATF agent ends up one of the clients and feels you "helped" too much and end up like KT .....

[Nathan Krynn]

so hows this work? i cnc a billet 80% lower have my customer come to the shop to pick it up

This is a big no no. If you do not have a determination letter and jump though the BATFE hoops and make 80%'s then you should be ready for the eventuality of the BATFE and DOJ knocking on your door saying you are manufacturing firearms with out a type 7 and illegal transfers.

As stated this has happened to people and not just the one example they listed.

As for the OP Wash has posted pretty good info.

Here is the thing there is no law that has "80%s" in there or specifics regarding AR-15 receiver making by itself. There are several laws that state you can manufacturer you own firearms as long as they comply with laws like NFA or state specific. I have been advised many times that the person has to be "involved" with building their own weapons.

What is the legal definition of involved? There isn't one.

I would say yes you need to do the work on your own receiver and people can help you but I would do the work your self. You can not drop off 80%'s or have them shipped to your machinist and have them done for you, you are not involved what so ever then.

I as many know am not a machinist by trade (we hire machinist's) but run the office and was/am a shooter. So if people can teach me its not hard.

Below is from the gun control act of 1968 straight off the BATFE website. It is a lawyer way to say you can make your own firearm as long as its American parts and its not NFA unless you register it as NFA. You also can not make it for the purpose of resale.


"With certain exceptions a firearm
may be made by a nonlicensee provided
it is not for sale and the maker
is not prohibited from possessing
firearms. However, a person is prohibited
from assembling a nonsporting
semi-automatic rifle or nonsporting
shotgun from imported parts. In addition,
the making of an NFA firearm
requires a tax payment and approval
by ATF. An application to make a
machinegun will not be approved
unless documentation is submitted
showing that the firearm is being
made for a Federal or State agency"

OP this is just one of the laws that involves self made firearms but I would look them up and decide for your self what you are comfortable with.


EDIT: On the determination letters it is just for the person or company that submitted them, Colfax can't use ours and we cant use theirs. We can site them when we apply for one but you cant say well TM has a determination letter to make 80%'s this way so I can with out getting one yourself, you cant as you do not have a determination letter saying that product is not a firearm.

Also I have been advised that once a lower is modified from that manufacturers determination letter it is a firearm, they exampled dimpling a hole and have wrote a determination that to someone who was doing it. But that doesn't mean you can give it to your FFL gunsmith to finish. First it would need manufacturing marks to even be transferred and most 80%'s do not get those nor need too. Second since it is not functioning I would never accept that from a customer as there are other determinations and laws that state you need to machine them. Remember that determinations often counter act each other but are both valid as they site totally different people and situations. Meaning you cant say determination A says this and determination B says this so that means I can do C. A good example is pistol/rifle lowers and weapons. There is a determination that says once a buffer tube is on a lower that can accept a stock it can never be a pistol. However in the gun control act there is a definition of a rifle and it states that it must have a rifled bore and be able to shoot a single projectile with each trigger pull. Well a lower with a buffer tube that can take a stock doesn't have a rifled bore and cant fire a projectile so on the 4473 you must put other and not rifle as it is not a rifle.

[Cokebottle]

think you are talking about KT Ord..... heres his website http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/ and here a list of court docs from his page ...

Exactly.
And I think a part of the issue is that KT was already licensed, just not as an 07.
Might be easier for "just a machine shop" to fly under the radar, but again, there's no telling who is "showing up" for build parties, and such a CNC-party would not be the first to be looked at with interest by the BATFE, OC, or LA Sheriff's offices.

AK build parties where the owners are simply bending flats are legally much "cleaner" than the owner of a CNC machine inputting his program and allowing visitors to load their 80% and punch "go"... and AK build parties have not been immune to investigation.

[Seesm]

The person has to finish the last 20% themselves... bottom line.