80% rules

[mud99]

I have a friend asking for help on an 80% AR build.

In what capacity can I legally help him?

Can I instruct him as to how to use the jig?

Can I make any of the cuts?

At some point the 80% turns into a firearm - where is this point on an AR lower - is it once the first hole is drilled?

And, is it legal for me to work on someone else's firearm once this point is reached - as an example can I assist with putting the LPK on?

[Norsemen308]

^good question.... i was think about this

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

You can instruct him.

He needs to do the work himself. That doesn't mean that you can't coach over his shoulder, but he has to do the operations.

Once it gets past the 80% point - drilling any hole or removing any metal from the FCG pocket, for example, it's a firearm if I recall the latest ATFE opinion correctly. You may note, for example, that TM 80% receivers no longer have the selector holes pre-drilled; that was because ATFE ruled that made other 80% receiver more than 80% complete and therefore TM couldn't do it, either.

Once it's a firearm, you can help with installing the FCG. Your friend can't leave the receiver with you for that purpose unless you are an FFL (again IIRC).

[VaderSpade]

^^^That’s exactly how I understand the rules.

[gatesbox]

Others have covered the basics on 80% building your buddy needs to do the work himself with verbal or written instruction. IMO the point that it becomes a firearm is when it is capable of being assembled into a functional weapon. When the first whole is drilled is when it becomes a greater than 80% firearm, at which point it must be transferred via ffl.

This is not so much the case for ARs but I believe that once the receiver is complete to the point of being functional the receiver is now 100%. iANAL and it is my opinion that at that point another party could repair, accurize, or perform other gunsmith work just like any other firearm. But I'm curious if my argument would hold up....

[wash]

The traditional explanation is that the owner must do all the work going from 80% to 100%.

In the case of CNC machining an AR lower, that can be as little as putting the lower in a jig, clamping that in a vise, pressing the go button and finally drilling the hammer, trigger and selector holes on a drill press.

On the other hand, ATF says that putting a selector hole in an 80% AR lower makes it a firearm so theoretically, if the owner drills the selector hole, hammer hole and trigger hole, they have made a firearm and they can let an FFL holding gunsmith "fix" their non-functioning AR.

Expanding upon that logic, you can let people infrequently borrow your firearms (some say for up to 30 days) and I don't think any law says the person borrowing a gun can't attempt to fix or improve it.

Having said that, no FFL holding gunsmith in his right mind would do that and having a friend "fix" your home made gun is skating on legal thin ice.

Now, if your friend mills out his FCG pocket to the point that the LPK can be installed, I don't think there is any reason why you couldn't clean it up for him.

Offering instruction for how to mill out the FCG is certainly allowable.

Just make sure that the owner has their hands on the wheel/button/lever.

[855R]

So what is the deal, they being the legal authority strap you to a lie detector machine and ask the all important question, "did you in fact drill your own holes?". How do you explaine that in the middle of the desert? Seems like there are alot of 80% intracate rules that you may have a hard time proving that you followed any. Is it a plan to instill fear to prevent people from doing this since they cannot make it illegal to do so.

[kcstott]

It's always what you or they can prove in court.

That stated. I will not have any trouble proving I did all the work myself. I have my shop very well documented on the web so it won't be hard to do. As for everyone else. If the need should arise I would very carefully remind anyone threatening to take you in that false arrest is also a very serious crime and doesn't play well with one's career in law enforcement. Since all they could charge you with is possession of an AW once that charge is dropped they haven't a leg to stand on and the false arrest suit can begin.

Now granted that is a very bad situation to be in. you will loose your freedom even for a little while. You may loose your job. and it will cost a lot of money to file charges against the local PD or whom ever arrested you.

It has been stated here again and again do not do anything illegal. Carry on legal parts with you weapon. and carry all the proper ATF and BoF documents showing this is a fairly common and perfectly legal practice.
That should be good enough.
I have little brothers in the CHP and they were trained in weapons ID. and they were trained as follows. If the person has reasonable evidence that the firearm is legally theirs, there is nothing they can do. It's the CHP's practice to only charge someone when they (The CHP) fully understands the law they are trying to apply. These officers get into very big trouble when a speeding ticket doesn't stick how much trouble do you think they'll get in when they erroneously charge someone with a felony??

[mud99]

Actually, I think it's a lot simpler than that.

Your friend who you help gets pulled over, police check the weapon to make sure it isn't loaded, notice it doesn't have serial numbers, then ask "what's this? why doesn't it have serial numbers?"

Your stupid friend then says "Oh, me and my buddy build that AR-15 in his garage"

Oh, your buddy helped you build this? <handcuffs> How about you tell me your buddy's name?

I realize that a lot of times on these forums we don't know quite know the bounds of what MIGHT be proven legal after a trial, so my goal is always to stay at the point where we have ample precedent showing that something is legal.

This is the exact reason why when I am in Reno, I don't just pick up some standard capacity magazines, even if it would be nearly impossible to be convicted of a crime. I prefer to stay on the squeaky clean side of the law.

Mark

So what is the deal, they being the legal authority strap you to a lie detector machine and ask the all important question, "did you in fact drill your own holes?". How do you explaine that in the middle of the desert? Seems like there are alot of 80% intracate rules that you may have a hard time proving that you followed any. Is it a plan to instill fear to prevent people from doing this since they cannot make it illegal to do so.

[RLTW]

It's a part. Till the LPK is installed, then attached to an upper.

Commenting on what someone said about functional firearm.

[bohoki]

rinse repeat

[kcstott]

It's a part. Till the LPK is installed, then attached to an upper.

Commenting on what someone said about functional firearm.

Incorrect
The ATF have ruled on this one time and again. Any "part" that is the frame and or receiver of a firearm is a firearm. Any lower receiver in any stage of assembly is a firearm regardless of serial number or it's ability to actually fire.
It doesn't have to be functional to be a firearm

If a finished lower was "just a part" you would not need to wait ten days to buy a finished one.

[Cokebottle]

Commenting on what someone said about functional firearm.

That comment was either misinformed, or poorly worded (not knowing who made the comment I can't say).

"functional" is not a requirement. If "functional" were a requirement then a stripped AR lower would not be a firearm and would not need to be transferred through an FFL.

[RLTW]

Great information, I hope that clarifys other questions regarding this.
Thanks

[Seesm]

You can NOT cut any material for your buddy.. YOu can bark orders and you can stop HIM from cutting material but you can not move any material out for him... From 80% Paperweight to 100% firearm it is his bag err LOWER...