Moderators, please delete.

[MosinVirus]

For those of you that have seen my pictures and videos it should be pretty clear that I like working with my hands and specifically on firearm related products.

Well, I have been thinking. The amount of time I like to dedicate to this hobby doesn't always meet my personal needs nor my budget. As in, I would like to tinker more than I can afford to.

Fact: My most recent obsession (and the one probably here to stay) is 1911s.
Fact: I am no gunsmith
Fact: I like filing and sanding stuff
Fact: 80% frames are not firearms as long as no operations are done to get them out of 80% configuration.

So my idea is... wouldn't I be able to receive someone else's 80%, and for example, install the beavertails, magwells, undercut trigger guards, blend installed components, dehorn frame, chamfer bottom of slide, dehorn slide, marry the barrel to slide, etc. For someone else?

For a small fee of course.

[dwalker]

Super grey area.
The slide work is likely an obvious non-issue. Your not working on a firearm, your working on parts. its no different than the guys who assemble uppers.

The frame work, tough call. fitting a safety or a beavertail etc. should reasonably be no different than ceracoating or engraving it. its not a firearm (yet).

[pklin1297]

As much as I'd like to help my friends with builds with items other than cutting the rails and drilling the holes needed to bring them to 100%, I don't touch the frames until they're 100% (by my friends' hands, and engraved). Just a rule I set for myself, because as much as I'd like to think, who's to know and who's to tell, you just never know...

It is quite a gray area. I wouldn't even do this for family members.

[njineermike]

For those of you that have seen my pictures and videos it should be pretty clear that I like working with my hands and specifically on firearm related products.

Well, I have been thinking. The amount of time I like to dedicate to this hobby doesn't always meet my personal needs nor my budget. As in, I would like to tinker more than I can afford to.

Fact: My most recent obsession (and the one probably here to stay) is 1911s.
Fact: I am no gunsmith
Fact: I like filing and sanding stuff
Fact: 80% frames are not firearms as long as no operations are done to get them out of 80% configuration.

So my idea is... wouldn't I be able to receive someone else's 80%, and for example, install the beavertails, magwells, undercut trigger guards, blend installed components, dehorn frame, chamfer bottom of slide, dehorn slide, marry the barrel to slide, etc. For someone else?

For a small fee of course.

Do you have an attorney on retainer yet?

[MosinVirus]

Ok, here is another way to loo at it...

I could buy 5 80% frames, do what I mentioned above and resell them. Couldn't I? They would still be 80% frames. But that would require me to spend money and who knows if people would be interested in higher priced 80%s

If I were to get a 100% frame in mail, it would go right back to where it came from. If I were to get a frame with started deck, rails or holes, it would go right back to where it came from.

If ATF showed up they would see that I don't touch anything related to getting a frame out of 80% status.

I actually believe I would have more problems if I had someone else's 100% frames (not being licensed to do that) than working on paperweights

[MosinVirus]

Do you have an attorney on retainer yet?

What is illegal or potentially illegal about what I asked?

[Awesomesauce]

What is your main motivating factor?
njineer mike makes a very important point, firearms laws aside, once you start a "business", you open yourself up to more liability and problems.

if you want to make guns, then do it.
if you want to start a side business for additional income, do it.
just do it in full compliance with the ridiculous federal and state laws.
forget about pushing it to the edge of what is legal or not, because the cost is too high if you get it wrong.

[MosinVirus]

Super grey area.
The slide work is likely an obvious non-issue. Your not working on a firearm, your working on parts. its no different than the guys who assemble uppers.

The frame work, tough call. fitting a safety or a beavertail etc. should reasonably be no different than ceracoating or engraving it. its not a firearm (yet).

As much as I'd like to help my friends with builds with items other than cutting the rails and drilling the holes needed to bring them to 100%, I don't touch the frames until they're 100% (by my friends' hands, and engraved). Just a rule I set for myself, because as much as I'd like to think, who's to know and who's to tell, you just never know...

It is quite a gray area. I wouldn't even do this for family members.

Thanks guys. I think that is what I cannot understand... paperweights don't require any licensing. So as long as they are paperweights they are ok for anyone to touch. Once they become "someone else's" meaning someone has started to take them out of 80% status, no one but the original owner should touch them until they get to 100% status. Basically to ensure that they (the original owner) and only they converted the paperweight to a firearm.

[spyde12]

I enjoy your videos bro, big fan.

Now, IANAL and IMHO, you should be fine as long as you're not modifying the frame based on the frame's determination letter.

For example, when it comes to 80% AR15s, the determination letter focuses on the FCG, pocket and pin holes. Modifying the magwell (i.e. engraving) and/or cerakote doesn't change the classification. Whereas a minor hole into the pocket area will reclassify it as a firearm.

It would be a good way to make a few bucks. With that said, run it by a lawyer to cover your ***ets.

Good luck!

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[MosinVirus]

What is your main motivating factor?
njineer mike makes a very important point, firearms laws aside, once you start a "business", you open yourself up to more liability and problems.

if you want to make guns, then do it.
if you want to start a side business for additional income, do it.
just do it in full compliance with the ridiculous federal and state laws.
forget about pushing it to the edge of what is legal or not, because the cost is too high if you get it wrong.

Well, what would be out of compliance?

[MosinVirus]

I enjoy your videos bro, big fan.

Now, IANAL and IMHO, you should be fine as long as you're not modifying the frame based on the frame's determination letter.

For example, when it comes to 80% AR15s, the determination letter focuses on the FCG, pocket and pin holes. Modifying the magwell (i.e. engraving) and/or cerakote doesn't change the classification. Whereas a minor hole into the pocket area will reclassify it as a firearm.

It would be a good way to make a few bucks. With that said, run it by a lawyer to cover your ***ets.

Good luck!

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

That is kind of what I was thinking. Touching any area that would be construed as starting to get out of 80% is a problem. I am talking about specifically not touching those areas, and even more so, not even accepting frames that have those areas touched...

[spyde12]

That is kind of what I was thinking. Touching any area that would be construed as starting to get out of 80% is a problem. I am talking about specifically not touching those areas, and even more so, not even accepting frames that have those areas touched

Yea, I understood
I'm really interested in finding out as well. That's really the only thing that's stopped me from doing this project. The rails are easy with the jigs they have in the market these days.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[MosinVirus]

Also, just to make it clear...

The reason I was thinking this idea might be stupid was not because I was thinking of possibly breaking the law (because it should be clear that my focus is on not doing so), but because I thought people may not even be interested in paying for something like that.

[dwalker]

Ok, here is another way to loo at it...

I could buy 5 80% frames, do what I mentioned above and resell them. Couldn't I? They would still be 80% frames. But that would require me to spend money and who knows if people would be interested in higher priced 80%s

If I were to get a 100% frame in mail, it would go right back to where it came from. If I were to get a frame with started deck, rails or holes, it would go right back to where it came from.

If ATF showed up they would see that I don't touch anything related to getting a frame out of 80% status.

I actually believe I would have more problems if I had someone else's 100% frames (not being licensed to do that) than working on paperweights

Not saying this is a solid plan, but this is not dis-similar from how we made money building "spec" race engines. I bought literally 100 sets of pistons, rods, etc. and weighed/measured/etc. each component then matched them into sets and then sorted those sets into "optimum" "less optimum" "adequate" and do on to build engine out of. I met the letter of the rules because every single component was in fact an OEM factory unmodified part, but the race engines we sold had the very best of the best parts we could get together.

So you buy say half a dozen frames and you add a beavertail and blended grip safety, maybe a magwell etc. and because its a super nice casting its an "A" frame and someone (like me) who is looking for an extra nice starting point will happily buy it to build a nice gun on, while if I were looking for a carry gun but still wanted a decent blend or magwell or whatever I might be happy to buy a "C" frame.

And yes, I 100% there are and always will be people who will pay for that. Especially people who know they cannot blend, checker, etc. a firearm

[liber]

Why not just become an FFL 07 and do it the right way?