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[TeamAllen]

for He, do you men Rick Green concealed the courses or Piazza?

[beanz2]

I didn't know this, but Bill Cookston is out.

The Great Purge...

[beanz2]

Don't feed the trolls. Put him on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with his useless and repetitive drivel.

Funny, I have added a couple of names to my ignore list too.

[Citizen_B]

Everyone who is a current FS member has a vested interest in seeing FS continue (at minimum) and grow (best case). The old timers that bought in early and paid large sums of money did get ripped off because Iggy couldn't deliver on his promises. That happened and should be a warning to everyone else the kind of guy he is and what could/will be repeated. The newer members (say from a decade ago onward) got a great deal from FS if all they did was buy a free training for life membership from another member. There is no denying the value that many have realized from that. Then there are old/new members who voluntarily bought into the upgrades. Some of those deals maybe worked out for the members, but most was based on empty promises. Maybe they didn't know Iggy's past, maybe they did and hoped things would be different now.

I completely acknowledge those that want nothing to do with FS because of their fraudulent business practices. However there are two things that also can't be ignored:

1) There are members who did/do indeed get more out of the training than the money they paid to receive it. Just because that was made possible by the old timers, doesn't change the fact realized by the new comers. The longer the old timers can continue to train at FS, the more their original costs are recouped. I know FS people who have literally taken over a hundred days of training over the years. How much is that worth? At $100/day that would be $10k.

2) It is not fair to call those that want to continue taking advantage of their good deal immoral. The reality is what it is. If a store offered you steak for $1/lbs, even when you knew it's cheap because it was sold to the previous customer for $10/lbs, would you buy it? Yes, we vote with our wallet and some do so out of principle, but the kicker is this...

The irony that I see many here not realizing is members that are just taking classes and not buying into his marketing BS are making FS lose money. So if you really want to see FS go down out of principle, you should be preaching for more new members who won't fall for his BS offers. Then if/when he tries to cancel all past promises and breach terms, promote taking legal action. We don't know if Iggy did this as simply another long planned fraudulent scheme to squeeze money out of members, or if he realized the serious legal jeopardy he was going to face. In one scenario he's an immoral genius, in the other he's a demented idiot. A combination is also possible.

[SG29736]

The newer members who got memberships for $100 have chosen to convince themselves and claim to naysayers that the members who paid tens of thousands of dollars are "just happy to see someone else get a good deal" and not unhappy that they were ripped off. That frees the new members to feel ok supporting a con man. That's their justification.

[Citizen_B]

The newer members who got memberships for $100 have chosen to convince themselves and claim to naysayers that the members who paid tens of thousands of dollars are "just happy to see someone else get a good deal" and not unhappy that they were ripped off. That frees the new members to feel ok supporting a con man. That's their justification.

And why couldn't it be both? Who sold the newer members the membership? The old timers. By doing so they recouped a tiny fraction of their original payment, and promoted the growth of FS with new memberships, knowing full well of FS's business model. So who's the bad guy again?

Again, how does supporting a con man work out if the member got more training value than what he paid for the membership?

[beanz2]

I agree with Citizen B. The fact remains that no matter how much advantage we take of his school, those members that got conned still got conned. The "un-conned" ones are not making the situation any worse. Dealing with Naish, you just have to be smarter than him.

[VolvoWrench]

All I can say is that if all existing members, maybe commander or, higher could pay $100 a year for membership, I'd be down. (somebody said this would bring in ~$26M) Year after year, this should be plenty of money.

Anyone lower than commander would pay a little more. And more and more if you're lower but, not more than $300 a year.

If you're brand new, well, I feel sorry for you.

[Mezcalfud]

Wait- I am causing iggy's and thus the original member's woes because I didn't buy in on the scheme AND I actually used my membership?

The original members (not sure if these are pre or post 1st iggy fleecing) didn't just buy firearm training, they bought into a scheme where they could potentially profit and/or obtain status and perks in iggyland. These original members happily sold memberships to new members at a price they set, likely reducing the nut of their membership thus profiting to some degree off of these new members. The more they upgraded, the more memberships they got to sell to new members as well as amassing more credits to spend in iggyland. 15 years ago so many of these original members were selling memberships that they really weren't worth very much money and could be found easily, even on ebay thus turning the range itself into a loss leader that supported the scheme.

However, some like myself, who wanted firearm training and not a condo, gold stars nor memberships to sell, bought these memberships from said original members at the member's set price, and actually used the membership for firearm training. Now I always figured there wouldn't be any room for me on xenu's ship but I sure enjoyed myself and I didn't mean to cause anyone harm.

I do have to admit that I thought him harmless until his recent scam as it was clearly meant to defraud people.

FS may restructure or even go silent for a bit but Iggy has his medium and his followers so he isn't going anywhere.

[Supersapper]

Everyone who is a current FS member has a vested interest in seeing FS continue (at minimum) and grow (best case). The old timers that bought in early and paid large sums of money did get ripped off because Iggy couldn't deliver on his promises. That happened and should be a warning to everyone else the kind of guy he is and what could/will be repeated. The newer members (say from a decade ago onward) got a great deal from FS if all they did was buy a free training for life membership from another member. There is no denying the value that many have realized from that. Then there are old/new members who voluntarily bought into the upgrades. Some of those deals maybe worked out for the members, but most was based on empty promises. Maybe they didn't know Iggy's past, maybe they did and hoped things would be different now.

I completely acknowledge those that want nothing to do with FS because of their fraudulent business practices. However there are two things that also can't be ignored:

1) There are members who did/do indeed get more out of the training than the money they paid to receive it. Just because that was made possible by the old timers, doesn't change the fact realized by the new comers. The longer the old timers can continue to train at FS, the more their original costs are recouped. I know FS people who have literally taken over a hundred days of training over the years. How much is that worth? At $100/day that would be $10k.

2) It is not fair to call those that want to continue taking advantage of their good deal immoral. The reality is what it is. If a store offered you steak for $1/lbs, even when you knew it's cheap because it was sold to the previous customer for $10/lbs, would you buy it? Yes, we vote with our wallet and some do so out of principle, but the kicker is this...

The irony that I see many here not realizing is members that are just taking classes and not buying into his marketing BS are making FS lose money. So if you really want to see FS go down out of principle, you should be preaching for more new members who won't fall for his BS offers. Then if/when he tries to cancel all past promises and breach terms, promote taking legal action. We don't know if Iggy did this as simply another long planned fraudulent scheme to squeeze money out of members, or if he realized the serious legal jeopardy he was going to face. In one scenario he's an immoral genius, in the other he's a demented idiot. A combination is also possible.

I completely agree with what you're saying, but there is one sticking point that many have mentioned: Dr. P has to give up control of FS. I agree with the view that he played a game for these many years, but like a Ponzi scheme, he ran out of enough new money to take care of the old promises.

I do NOT want to see FS gone. I've learned a lot and like others, have met many nice people. But the business model must change and the absolute control Dr. P has got must be relinquished or taken from him. He has NOT acted in the best interests of his own creation. I believe as many have said that he may have actually taken advantage, using FS money to fund his real estate empire.

FS is not losing money because of people not buying into this "restructuring". It's losing money because Dr. P is not a business man out to make FS greater.

Bottom line: Dr. P must NOT be permitted to continue in a position of power at FS. Or else this will continue.

[SG29736]

If a friend said they were considering doing business with an outfit with FS track record you'd advise them to go for it? Why are there so many discussions about this or that gunstore who operates in a dishonest way and so many people will emphatically proclaim that, by god, they'd never do business with them on general moral principles. Why do those principles disappear when it comes to doing business with FS? It just demonstrates where some people draw the line I guess.

[w00dmaster]

Hah, and from last nights email the restructuring isn't going to happen.

Instead, any money people gave him for maintenance fees gets put back into their account as Front Sight Bucks. Maintenance fees are no longer a thing, daily fees are no longer a thing. He says his shops charge retail for stuff. I didn't happen to see anything in the email about no longer having to buy your ammo from him, so I guess you still have to do that.

So, it turns out this was a scare tactic cash grab to raise capital for something by getting people to buy into his maintenance and membership transfer pyramid scheme and returning that actual money to them as Front Sight bucks. Likewise a scare tactic to tell everyone who has never, or rarely gone; that he can pull the rug out from under them at any time so they better show up and take a class to get their money's worth (oh, and buy his ammo).

Edit to add: all the people who paid their monthly maintenance fee already literally get a gold star in their account.

I agree so now your lifetime membership is pay as you go. You now pay the same amount (actually more) to go there as the 3 and 4 day passes you sold to people. He scared every one (who cares) by cancelling your life time memberships only to change it to pay as you go so you would say well at least its not as bad as it could be. If you cannot see that you were manipulated by a master deceiver, liar and thief then drink the cool aid. I won't and I was saying this was going to happen more than 4 years ago only to be called names and laughed at. Personal attacks, I was even given the name 5 o'clock Charly as I was so regular with my posts. If you fall for his latest scam you are fools, I am not calling every one a fool, in the last 6 or so posts many agreed with me. But those of you saying this is not unreasonable are fools your life time member ship is now pay as you go. Those of you who talk about how you got your moneys worth from your $100 life time membership so you do not care, did not build FS, people like I did with our thousands we spent. Making obvious comment's is not attacking people if this strikes a nerve with you it should if the shoe fits. I am not the only one who feels as I do. I am just the loudest.

[PogoJack]

*NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

for He, do you men Rick Green concealed the courses or Piazza?

https://vimeo.com/670526348

[Manofmayhem]

Survey number 1 just went out. Survey number 2 will be sent tomorrow. I'm so tired of his relentless emails and tactics.

[Dago Red]