*NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

[SharedShots]

Seems every place has a sack o’ crap attached to it in some way. Money, time, restrictions, money, ammo, travel, lodging, money…

Money.

It's all about money and ego, always has been always will be.

If a training site provides you with value, great. If it doesn't or once it stops providing that, just move on.

Some people sign up for lifetime this and that and never stop to think it's nothing more than a timeshare and for some it works out, for most you're paying for some preferential treatment that can and will change. Anyone who pays money for something in advance should know the risk that they might not get what they paid for and the longer the term the more likely you aren't going to get it.

Front Sight is was it is but that doesn't mean it is what it was or will ever be that again. It's a timeshare. There is an entire industry just to get people out of them, this is no different other than its - guns.

Hey, don't fret, there is some YouGotTubed SEAL telling people what cleaning rod they should use. He even has people subscribing to that stuff. This is nothing in comparison.

[98taco3]

It also gets this group off their books so if litigation occurs, they can claim they were made whole. There's some legal uncertainty about how effective that may be. The clever part is it looks like he's only refunding dollars that were paid directly to FS, which we all know is only part of the equation. Most members bought their membership from other members, so the memberships themselves have some intrinsic value that have been quietly wiped away uncompensated.

Many are receiving pennies on the dollar compared to what they paid for their memberships. I myself paid directly to FS for a Legacy membership many years ago. I believe this was to the tune of around $4k before memberships started to get handed out like candy. Ive received a check for below 10% of that claimed to be a "full membership refund" along with my excommunicado letter saying im no longer able to use the services of the Continental .

A fair and equitable solution would be to refund the entirety of the membership however that does not appear to be what is going on. Im 100% positive litigation will come of this if this is the path they have chosen to take as there are now real quantifiable damages to many ex-members.

[w00dmaster]

Many are receiving pennies on the dollar compared to what they paid for their memberships. I myself paid directly to FS for a Legacy membership many years ago. I believe this was to the tune of around $4k before memberships started to get handed out like candy. Ive received a check for below 10% of that claimed to be a "full membership refund" along with my excommunicado letter saying im no longer able to use the services of the Continental .

A fair and equitable solution would be to refund the entirety of the membership however that does not appear to be what is going on. Im 100% positive litigation will come of this if this is the path they have chosen to take as there are now real quantifiable damages to many ex-members.

So much for the members that paid to up grade to become owners of FS some day. I remember saying on this forum that they were fools if they ever thought it would happen. Seems the only ones he cannot screw is the founding members that have not violated the membership rules. But by not paying front site for the memberships he owes all that got the freebies nothing. This was all planned guys! He knew exactly what he was doing to all his minions. You got your use of the facility for the pennies you paid and as you guys say out little just going to end up with nowhere to go if he keeps this place and I bet he will for at least 5-10 years before it all flushes. IMHO

[acegunnr]

For those who want a separate thread, maybe we can use the thread

"Well Front Sight is Done"

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1772079

To post all the complaints, litigations, and marketing shenanigans that are taking place.

We can keep this thread for current trip reports and advice for members who are taking future training at Front Sight. Keeping it more drama-free.

Not sure how successful traffic control will be between the two threads.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Many are receiving pennies on the dollar compared to what they paid for their memberships. I myself paid directly to FS for a Legacy membership many years ago. I believe this was to the tune of around $4k before memberships started to get handed out like candy. Ive received a check for below 10% of that claimed to be a "full membership refund" along with my excommunicado letter saying im no longer able to use the services of the Continental .

A fair and equitable solution would be to refund the entirety of the membership however that does not appear to be what is going on. Im 100% positive litigation will come of this if this is the path they have chosen to take as there are now real quantifiable damages to many ex-members.

Wow, I still cannot wrap my head around this and what his rationale is for doing this to members. There's even a woman on one of the FB groups who had herself, her husband and their daughter banned and she has no idea what she even said. This particular person was even an ambassador of sorts at some point, written articles in favor of FS< etc. She recorded her phone conversations itht he concierge and all they told her was the accounts were deleted with no other information why, etc.

At first I thought Piazza was just going through and getting rid of any member sho spoke out against him that never really paid for a membership, but would keep anyone who paid a large sun for theirs, but you just proved that theory wrong.

Just cancelling someone's membership because you may or may not have said something disparaging about the place after you paid a hefty sum for a membership is surely going to lead to some sort of class-action lawsuit, and the more members he cancels the larger that lawsuit will become.

You'd think he would have learned his lesson with the current lawsuit that got him into this current mess, but no. He's apparently just digging his own hole deeper and alienating and pissing off even more people during all of this. I, for the life of me do not understand why he is doing this.

[beanz2]

For those who want a separate thread, maybe we can use the thread

"Well Front Sight is Done"

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1772079

To post all the complaints, litigations, and marketing shenanigans that are taking place.

We can keep this thread for current trip reports and advice for members who are taking future training at Front Sight. Keeping it more drama-free.

Not sure how successful traffic control will be between the two threads.

Good idea!

Maybe ask for a moderator to help? Or how about you getting a limited moderator privilege just between these two threads?

[w00dmaster]

Wow, I still cannot wrap my head around this and what his rationale is for doing this to members. There's even a woman on one of the FB groups who had herself, her husband and their daughter banned and she has no idea what she even said. This particular person was even an ambassador of sorts at some point, written articles in favor of FS< etc. She recorded her phone conversations itht he concierge and all they told her was the accounts were deleted with no other information why, etc.

At first I thought Piazza was just going through and getting rid of any member sho spoke out against him that never really paid for a membership, but would keep anyone who paid a large sun for theirs, but you just proved that theory wrong.

Just cancelling someone's membership because you may or may not have said something disparaging about the place after you paid a hefty sum for a membership is surely going to lead to some sort of class-action lawsuit, and the more members he cancels the larger that lawsuit will become.

You'd think he would have learned his lesson with the current lawsuit that got him into this current mess, but no. He's apparently just digging his own hole deeper and alienating and pissing off even more people during all of this. I, for the life of me do not understand why he is doing this.

I can't understand why you thought he would learn anything and he would change? He is a master of deception. He was never going to let the freebee memberships stay, if you did not up grade you were of no use to him. Was clear to me since 2014. IMHO I find it interesting that the 5 gun (he made that up) world champion and legend in his own mind owner of the self-proclaimed largest gun trainer and self-proclaimed best in the world, needs to hire a body guard? Does not say much for him does it?

[Sam1234]

Yea his last email is logically inconsistent. That's why I don't believe it to be correct, and that he wants everyone (originally and going forward) to switch over to the fee based model.

It's a semi-rational response. It's true that group has clearly lost his loyalty and unlikely to pay in more money. Dropping them has a likely low future opportunity cost. On the contrary, it helps by clearing off those who only want to utilize the facility (aka train).

It also gets this group off their books so if litigation occurs, they can claim they were made whole. There's some legal uncertainty about how effective that may be. The clever part is it looks like he's only refunding dollars that were paid directly to FS, which we all know is only part of the equation. Most members bought their membership from other members, so the memberships themselves have some intrinsic value that have been quietly wiped away uncompensated.

The move additionally puts fear in members to discuss FS negatively in public. That risk has always been there, but doing it now at scale makes the effect more acute.

FS probably has the legal right to cancel membership for any reason (that's generally true but I don't know for sure in this case). Though, the bad publicity it's getting by doing that is definitely hurting FS's image even more. Social media has made it much easier for like minds to assemble and organize. Plus, everything online is almost permanent. Honesty really is the best policy. I suspect a couple of lawsuits against FS are currently in the works. Even from an outsiders layman perspective, FS's actions look bad. I think there is some real legal jeopardy here.

I must disagree with you on your statement "FS probably has the legal right to cancel membership for any reason"

Front Sight members had only one contract obligation. That was to purchase a membership from ether Front Sight or an authorised third party. After that members had no further contractual obligations. The amount paid is not germain with regard to the validity of the membership contract.

Front Sight however had a contractual obligation to perform on their part. To provide lifetime firearms training at no additional charge, (along with any additional benefits appropriate to the members membership level). Front Sight can not decide to unilaterally cancel the contract ending their unfulfilled contractual obligation.

They could offer to buy out members. Members could voluntarily accept or reject said buyout offer. Front Sight can not unilaterally force a member to accept at any price.

[w00dmaster]

To take him to court will cost in most cases way more than your going to get. Litigation is expensive. He knows that and will do what ever he wants and succeed!

[Sam1234]

To take him to court will cost in most cases way more than your going to get. Litigation is expensive. He knows that and will do what ever he wants and succeed!

There are class actions suits being put together and there is always small claims court. Money is only one reason to hold the dark lord accountable.

[Muzz]

For those who want a separate thread, maybe we can use the thread

We can keep this thread for current trip reports and advice for members who are taking future training at Front Sight. Keeping it more drama-free.

Not sure how successful traffic control will be between the two threads.

[Muzz]

[w00dmaster]

There are class actions suits being put together and there is always small claims court. Money is only one reason to hold the dark lord accountable.

Is anyone following the CA suits? Are they going anywhere and can we get a link to follow them ourselves? A lot of people would be interested I think.

[Jedi54]

was just thinking the same thing.
I think we'd be better off leaving this thread for updates, lawsuits, FS FB group stuff, etc

have a dedicated thread just for Training, tips, recent trips, etc.
Outline that in Post #1, even have a link back to this one for former members who want a place to talk.

just a thought.

[acegunnr]

was just thinking the same thing.
I think we'd be better off leaving this thread for updates, lawsuits, FS FB group stuff, etc

have a dedicated thread just for Training, tips, recent trips, etc.
Outline that in Post #1, even have a link back to this one for former members who want a place to talk.

just a thought.

Here you go J

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1777576