*NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

[acegunnr]

Ace when's your trip to FS.
Looks like I'm there with 6 friends on 3/25.

I'll be going home on the 25th.

[w00dmaster]

Gunsite, Thunder ranch and other accredited firearms training facilities get $500 plus a day (starting) for training and are back logged I have been to some of them including Gunsite as well as FS. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and that is a cold fact! Front site gets $50 to free for 2-4 day classes? Do I need say anything more? Is it a value yes of course. At $50 it’s a great value but what does that really say about the place? All I hear is for the $50-$100 I paid I will keep going, what I have not heard is I would be willing to pay $400-500 a day to keep it open and keep coming. FS is the K-mart of gun training and it appeals to the K-mart customers. I would like to see FS survive, it can't at $50 a day or $75 a day per person. It needs people that are willing to spend $200-300 a day plus memberships to get preferential treatment for classes and some other perks but there has to be a revenue stream now that he has run the course of the pyramid scheme. It cannot continue on $50-75 a day. He cannot run the scheme again thats over. That being said there is no room for a owner peeling a 7 figure income off of it any more, there never was and that is why it failed. I am sure his investors got tire of him not opening his books up to them or they found something disturbing that made them back out in all cases. Most likely his #1 issue with not getting a backer and why I think he will never get one is his salary and the books show how much he has pulled out. His attitude is don't ever use your own money and investors like to see your skin in it. He did not end up with several 10 million dollar homes on a six figure salary. If you guys really want to save this place you will need to really pay what it has proven to take the other ranges to operate, question is is FS training worth that fee or is it really the K-mart of training facilities?

[VolvoWrench]

I am completed DISGUSTED at the latest email with the restructure on hold.
For me, there is only one type of gold star family. Those who have given their life in service of this country. For that piece of crap, wannabe patriot, snake oil salesman to use this terminology for members that have chosen to pay his membership fees is beyond what I can rationally understand.

Sounds like they listened to you...

Gold Star Member offer (changed to Rapid Enrollment Gold Status Member to not conflict with military and law enforcement Gold Star meaning)

[VolvoWrench]

So, I read the email. I was already a Knight with some certs and stuff in my account. Now, according to the new path, the only thing that would change if I take the new path is I'd lose all my certs. and have to pay $50 a day for training? (I already have insurance). And, $50 a year in background check?

If I only go once a year, whats the difference if I stay the old path or, take the new?

[ARFrog]

So, I read the email. I was already a Knight with some certs and stuff in my account. Now, according to the new path, the only thing that would change if I take the new path is I'd lose all my certs. and have to pay $50 a day for training? (I already have insurance). And, $50 a year in background check?

If I only go once a year, whats the difference if I stay the old path or, take the new?

If you go option #1, you get to pay more, beat back the hordes, get a nifty pin, and have more competition for private training access.

If you go with option #2, you get what you previously got unless and until you have to fight against then next set of unilateral changes - maybe you will have to wear the Burka of shame while on the range.

If there is a future BK, then...who knows.


All this drama and still no transparency from Iggy. No open books. No lessons learned...

[Vinnie Boombatz]

I still have questions:

1) Is the requirement to purchase FS ammo gone? I suspect yes as it wasn't mentioned as a requirement.

2) Do new students who are given certificates (either from Gold or non-Gold members) have to pay the $75/day to attend? The email says all new students, so I'm suspecting yes. This would be a real damper on bringing in new students on a try and see approach.

3) Are the memberships in non-Gold member's accounts going to be honored with free for life training as before, or will the new member be required to be "Gold" and pay the daily fees? I'm not sure on this one, as he says all will be back to how it was, while at the same time saying all new students have to pay the fees.

I suspect over time Piazza will erode the benefit of credits/patronage points, maybe even remove the ability to pay background checks with them, and the only real value of the old memberships will be fee-less training (maybe). I have to say, I don't think Naish planned this long ago. I think he really did want to force all members into the "Gold" pricing scheme, but got major heat and walked it back to what's here now. The incentive to "upgrade" to Gold is very weak. He'll need to juice his sales pitch way up to pull members into the new pricing model. $75/day is actually still too much IMO. I think he could run the place sustainably with way less because of the high volume of students. He should be focusing on side things that would actually be profitable/sustainable, like a real food option onsite etc.

[Supersapper]

Not true. He says he's got just south of 270,000 memberships. If he charges $150 per year from each membership regardless of who owns it, that would be right around $40,000,000 per year, and it would grow with new members. That works out to just less than $110,000 per day.. And that is running the operation exactly as it has been running, minus all of the freebies and upgrades.

If it takes $40M per year to run FS, I want to see the books. Then we trim the BS. If Naish has been drawing a 7 figure salary, then it needs to stop and somehow the council or founders or even the government, needs to find a legit way to remove him.

[Supersapper]

Let me get this straight: you'd rather see it go under than to see a reasonable change made so that it can continue?

Yeah...he made promises that he couldn't keep. Now FS has issues and Piazza deserves to be absolutely removed from control, but you're going to insist that the failed business model be continued until extinction?

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Let me get this straight: you'd rather see it go under than to see a reasonable change made so that it can continue?

Yeah...he made promises that he couldn't keep. Now FS has issues and Piazza deserves to be absolutely removed from control, but you're going to insist that the failed business model be continued until extinction?

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. He obviously can’t run the business properly. Let it fold and let someone else take over or buy the land and run it efficiently. He can make changes for new members but blaming all existing members for the current state of affairs (which he did in the first restructuring email and immediately regretted that one) and then making all the changes at once, he alienated a ton of members. Don’t tell the people who have supported that place for years that they are the reason the business is failing then tell them if they don’t comply by a certain date they will lose everything. Dude is unhinged. I don’t care that he took all that back, the damage was done and he showed his true colors in the initial restructuring email. I would have been fine with one of those new rules, but not all of them on top of blaming me and everyone else for his poor business model and incompetence.

I’ve only been a member for 2 years but always felt like I owed more for what I got. I bought my commander membership for $175 from another member. I wanted to see FS thrive and donated several times when they were closed because of the pandemic and then again a couple times later for the legal fund. So when he came out and essentially blamed us for his lack of a business knowledge and mismanaging funds he lost me. Very disrespectful.

I’ve said this a lot in this thread…I love the place, I love the quality of instruction and the instructors are amazing, but I’m not going to bail out the owner because he sucks at running a business and cares more about his lawsuits that he probably diverted tons of money into instead of investing it into the company, otherwise you’re just reinforcing his bad and narcissistic behavior.

[ARFrog]

Well said. Seems to be a reasonable, well thought out position.

[NapalmCheese]

So yeah, option one includes pretty much all of the things guaranteed to me with my Guardian (now Founder) membership PLUS additional fees. So what incentive is there for me to go with option 1 unless he's lying about "nothing changing" with option 2? I should look into this being a member of the board bit, maybe I can show up to a meeting and call Mr. Piazza an idiot.

The guy's a shyster, I'm happy to milk him for cheap (effectively free) training as long as I can and let capitalism run it's course with a bad business model.

[Epicnemesis]

I’ve maintained that those of us who paid 1-200 for a membership have been getting way too good a deal and that a daily usage fee is more then fair. Hell, I’ve only gone once to a 2 day and feel like I robbed the place.

With that said…I’m gonna go ahead and turn down Pizza the Hutt’s offer. I just don’t trust him. I don’t trust him, I don’t trust locking myself into new terms with him, I don’t trust him keeping those fees reasonable. I just trust nothing in Frontsight outside of the training and the staff.

I’d gladly pay the 75 a day, but not to him. No chance. The ****ty thing is I’m stuck with this damn patriot membership. Once I get my DG in defensive handgun not sure what I’ll do. It’ll probably take a few years to get there though.

[w00dmaster]

Not true. He says he's got just south of 270,000 memberships. If he charges $150 per year from each membership regardless of who owns it, that would be right around $40,000,000 per year, and it would grow with new members. That works out to just less than $110,000 per day.. And that is running the operation exactly as it has been running, minus all of the freebies and upgrades.

If it takes $40M per year to run FS, I want to see the books. Then we trim the BS. If Naish has been drawing a 7 figure salary, then it needs to stop and somehow the council or founders or even the government, needs to find a legit way to remove him.

First off he does not have 270k members. Every thing this guy says is a lie. The question is how many people who still want to got to FS are willing to pay anything over $50 for a 4 day course? Because so far thats the price and something is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. FS needs to go belly up and restart with a new owner IMHO but? I am hearing people worried about just losing their free certs, you think they are going to pay more money? Your theory is for $150 a year is for if they go or not ? That is unrealistic no one will pay that as a maintenance fee. He could not possibly run 270k people through the facility a year ever! We need to talk about realistic ways to keep it open. I think $250 a day class fee each day you are there all in is realistic, if you disagree then you do not think its worth that much simple. Your lifetime membership would give you preferential booking and free background checks and maybe a deal at the store and pro shop. And now from now on no more life time memberships sold that is just unsustainable. Quit the hotel and all bull shi# clear a lot and rent camping lots out $50 a day no electricity or anything just camping and porta pots. Running water only for spong baths. Ok so I have started the discussion!

[Sam1234]

I think you know my thoughts about Dr pissa and what we, at lease I have found out about the Front Sight financial side. That said I will tell you the facilities are very, very good. I have only taken the 4 day defensive handgun course so I can only speak from experience regarding that. It was excellent. I have trained next to novice gun owners as well as certified instructors, and several first class police officers. I would not define that course as the K-Mart of basic defensive handgun training. I am not clear how basic gun safety, gun handling, drawing from concealment, sight picture, recoil management, trigger control, live fire drills could be much better. You are seriously underestimating the quality of the facility and the training.

You may also be underestimating the fraud committed by Dr pissas.

I would love to go to Gun Sight or Thunder Ranch. I bet the training is great, but unless I win the lottery I won't be going. Sadly the cost of firearms training across the US is prohibitive for many Americans. The mission of providing solid and affordable firearms training for every American gun owner is something I believe we can all get behind, but for me, not at the cost of supporting a fraudster and con artist.

It is not any surprise to me or probably anyone who has attended Front Sight that we speak highly of the facility and the training received. It is a surprise to me how many seem to be willing to overlook the criminal aspect of the owner.

[Sam1234]

Not true. He says he's got just south of 270,000 memberships. If he charges $150 per year from each membership regardless of who owns it, that would be right around $40,000,000 per year, and it would grow with new members. That works out to just less than $110,000 per day.. And that is running the operation exactly as it has been running, minus all of the freebies and upgrades.

If it takes $40M per year to run FS, I want to see the books. Then we trim the BS. If Naish has been drawing a 7 figure salary, then it needs to stop and somehow the council or founders or even the government, needs to find a legit way to remove him.

Reasonable thoughts.