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[surferbum]

Where's Judge Wapner when you need him? Too bad he's no longer with us[emoji22]


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[seeedgar]

Whether the BK Chapter 11 is approved or not, doesn't the owner still have the option to sell the business anyway, even if facing Chapter 7?? Any unchallenged secured creditors still get paid their claims?? Correct me if wrong, I think there is a challenge to the validity of the LVDF loan and default, just entered to the BK court by FS the other day. A lot of twists and turns, a lot being thrown out there. Just trying to observe the complex maneuvering!! Very confused!!

[Supersapper]

I agree. I think the Prairie Fire is biting off more than they can chew and are unfortunately confusing the general public's love of firearms with people's love to spend money on training, which are two very different things.

Sure, there are lots of people who love owning and shooting guns, but there are MUCH less that will spend good money to get training. People would rather own more guns instead of spending money to actually eb taught how to use them properly. Why spend several hundred or a grand or two on a class when they could buy a new firearm and have something tangible to show for that money spent?

By no mens am I saying that this is right, because these days I spend more money on classes and training. I enjoy learning and actually being able to run the firearms I have effectively and efficiently, but for many that's just not the goal. They just want to collect and have them, and going to the range once in a while and shooting a few boxes at a target from a stationary bay is all they want to do and believe that's all they nee to be trained. There's also the fact that because it's very expensive, many simply can't afford it.

Seems like Prairie Fire is going to be more focused on competition and training wanna-be "operators". Front Sight got a bad reputation for the way they owner behaved and ran the business, but it's hard to argue the validity of their curriculum, in particular their intro classes; 4DDHG, Tactical Shotgun, etc. I really enjoyed their curriculum and how thorough and comprehensive it was, how it was tailored to the person who had never touched a firearm before while still allowing the somewhat experienced shooter to still get something out of the class. And as cheesy as some of the presentations were, the lectures about when and when not to shoot, what to expect if you unfortunately have to use your firearm in self defense and color code of mental awareness lectures were great. I went there the first time thinking what the heck are they going to teach me in 4 days? After that initial visit I realized 4 days wasn't nearly enough and wanted to go back, and it gave me a lot more respect for the place (before I knew about how Piazza rant eh business and how he treated his employees) for putting so much emphasis on safety and addressing all the other things that came along with being a firearms owner in addition to just shooting.

Would be nice if Prairie Fire retained this sort of approach, but like I mentioned above, it seems like they are more focused on competition shooting and making peopel think they're Tacti-cool operators.

True, and your point about it all is fairly well made. FrontSight had it's niche: training new shooters to do things that they have never done standing in a cubicle shooting at paper. They also did so at a price that was doable for the little folks that can't afford an $1800 class. Plus the lunchtime classes were great stuff. I train folks now as well, and some of what they put out in those classes I use.

I guess PF is just going a different route, but like many have said, I just can't see it being sustainable at those prices. If they just simply adopted a more spread out pricing arrangement for all of the FrontSight folks that was sustainable, they'd have a built in revenue source:

80,000 FS members at $500 initial membership = $40,000,000
One time fee.
(Let's say it takes 2 years to convince all those folks to do it, so it's actually only $20,000,000 per year.)

80,000 FS " " $100 annual membership = $ 8,000,000

Standard range fees at $100/day/person
10,000 FS people train per year = $1,000,000

These numbers are a bit arbitrary, but are only meant to give you an idea of what they could get if the 80,000 actual participating members actually wanted to buy in. At those prices I might. With those numbers, they would sustainably pay off the property 100% in 2-4 years and have a fully sustainable system and client base.

But that's just my penny and a half. YMMV.

[Supersapper]

It isn't, and that was the point of my posting that Vinny replied to. What really kind of gets me is that yes, battlefield training/expereince is a great draw, but I've seen how the average military servicemember / government operator really shoots. I've been on the ranges. And it's actually pretty rare, just statistically, how many servicemembers have actually been in a firefight that didn't involve them simply trading ammo, hunkered down until someone with a huge boomstick came in and fixed it.

Let's really face it: John Wick was a great movie, and Keanu actually trains those techniques, but like you said...I can't see many people putting out that kind of money to train there when there are plenty of great training facilities a lot closer.

[Citizen_B]

[surferbum]

*NEW* Front Sight Members Check-In Here!

[Matt P]

I’m not sure how I called you out.
I carefully used the word IF vinnie. You said you spent a couple thousand.
Why be insulted/bothered/upset if my comment didn’t apply to you.

If anything I have been more complimentary to you than other.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

I’m not looking for you to agree with me Vinnie.
Upset? Should I be? Are you?

Not at all. Like I said, I have no skin in this game regarding the success or failure of PF. Just be careful when you call out someone and say they are taking advantage of something on the backs of others and making false assumptions about people. But making those statements says more about you than it does me.

[Matt P]

I’m not looking for you to agree with me Vinnie.
Upset? Should I be? Are you?

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Constellis.
Universal Shooting Academy
Sig Sauer Academy
Tactical Firearms Training
Gunsite
Thunder Ranch
Ares Training Center

By no means that is all.

Are any of the ones you just mentioned on the same scale/scope as the only FS property/possible new PF property in terms of sheer size? I haven't followed the news about it, but wasn't Thunder Ranch up for sale last year and they have been traveling to locations around the country? Either way, it's off topic, and not sure how you think this validates or confirms the guaranteed success of PF.You just seem more upset that I haven't agreed with you completely. I have nothing invested in PF and could care less if they succeed or not. At this point we are both speculating, but I really do think when it comes down to it as far as your average civilian goes, they would probably rather look the part and have the cool gear, but when they see the sticker shock of what it's going to cost to train at PF the majority of them will most likely pass. If they can survive with the majority of their revenue coming from LEO and other agencies paying to send their peopel to train there, they have my full support and more power to them. I ahve no ill will toward PF, jsut find their proposed business model interesting and a bit ambitious, especially with inflation and a looming (or current recession, depending on who you ask) where disposable income seems to be less and less prominent among the average person/family these days.

[Matt P]

Constellis.
Universal Shooting Academy
Sig Sauer Academy
Tactical Firearms Training
Gunsite
Thunder Ranch
Ares Training Center

By no means that is all.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Vinnie you are stuck in a loop of thought/responses.

You are only focused on interpreting half of this conversation. The parts where you believe I am either attacking Front Sight or you.

You spent solid money on your membership. Excellent.
Based on your stated attendance you reaped the rewards of that membership.
Reads like you made an excellent investment and are now a safer and more responsible firearm owner. We can never have too many of those.

My only effort here was to suggest that facility is in excellent hands (If the judge accepts) and will no doubt offer a broad spectrum of firearms related instruction.

You mention other facilities that were attempted liek Blackwater on the East Coast. Are those facilities in operation now or ever get off the grounds and still in business?

[SWalt]

Absolutely. And you could bring your wife or your girlfriend (but never both on the same trip) and because of how they presented the material you actually had many people who had never shot a gun before or weren't sure if they'd like it walk away at the end of the fourth day loving the experience and for many on the fence it absolutely changed their whole perspective and outlook on gun ownership. This is what many other places miss in my opinion.

Exactly, that was 1 stated goal of Iggy, what he wanted to accomplish. Train as many people as possible. That 60 yr old grandma who wanted to have some skill past going to a range. Or younger people who wanted to learn some tactics as well firearm shooting/handling skills. Most weren't there to become a elite operator, just wanted good training/instruction/skills to be comfortable and knowledgeable. FS did that well.

[Matt P]

Vinnie you are stuck in a loop of thought/responses.

You are only focused on interpreting half of this conversation. The parts where you believe I am either attacking Front Sight or you.

You spent solid money on your membership. Excellent.
Based on your stated attendance you reaped the rewards of that membership.
Reads like you made an excellent investment and are now a safer and more responsible firearm owner. We can never have too many of those.

My only effort here was to suggest that facility is in excellent hands (If the judge accepts) and will no doubt offer a broad spectrum of firearms related instruction.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Vinnie I never suggested what Front Sight offered wasn’t valuable.
From your own words you embraced what was offered and became a safe and more confident firearm owner.
You and hundreds possibly thousands of others are better for having been. Obviously there is value in that.

Are you aware of large firearm training facilities back East that almost cater exclusively to LE?
Were you aware that the organization/business formerly known as Blackwater tried to open a large scale facility near San Diego? This was to cater to military/LE professionals.

Individuals with experience providing instruction to Gov./State agencies see opportunity on this coast of the US.

Doesn’t Front Sight discuss not knowing what you don’t know?

This may be an example of it for you Vinnie. I do not need to sell you on the vision of PF nor it’s sustainability.
The persons involved in that organization see this exciting future for that location.

Do you really think you know their business plan and market projections as well as they do?

Maybe you do not recognize any of those individuals involved in this future operation. Reading their bios would quickly and easily convince you this group is extremely professional.

Mostly free firearm training on a large scale is done Vinnie. If you used a cert. to join up with Front Sight purchased cheaply than you attended there off the backs of those who believed in IPs vision early on. Members who spent thousands and more to be part of that vision.

I never said I completely disagree with you, just have a different take on it. We can disagree and express our opinions. Time will tell if PF succeeds or not in Pahrump. I've moved on and have been taking classes elsewhere. In the last couple months alone I have attended three courses there and have another 2-day course coming up next weekend and none of it has been free, and book hotels for the multi-day classes so please stop trying to portray me as a cheapskate or someone who either wants to train for free or thinks that FS was the be all end all, because that isn't what I have said. I simply have stated my opinion that it will be difficult for PF to sustain and maintain such a large facility while catering to a specific type of client that can not only want that type of training (we all would love that kind of training) but can ALSO afford it. When the rubber meets the road I bet most aren't willing to shell out that kind of money when you factor in the travel and lodging expenses on top of the cost of the membership plus daily training fees. Seems liek PF is kind of going in the opposite direction of other world-class trainers who instead of having a fixed location are traveling around the country and going to where the people are. Some of the higher end trainers can charge $500 or more for a 1 day class and that would still be cheaper for the student if it's within an hour or two drive from where they live compared to booking a flight, a rental car and lodging on top of the cost of the class. Thats all I was saying.

And finally, I did purchase a Knight membership for $2k, so again, you're incorrect in saying I wasn't one of those who was "part of the vision" and was a cheapskate and trained for free. I also donated a few times when they were shut down during the pandemic and brought many people out with me for their first classes there who in turn spent money there. These people also supported the town of Pahrump by booking lodging there, shopping and eating at the local stores and restaurants, etc. So you are way off in regards to suggesting that I took advantage of FS on the backs and money spent by others. Sure, I didn't spend tens of thousands on a membership, but that's not my fault, that's Piazzas fault and instead of getting mad at me get mad at him.