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[Citizen_B]

This thread has so much crazy. I think that's why I keep returning.

OK based on this lates post I have some serious questions.

You wrote: "We all already know he plays marketing tricks."
A trick is a crafty procedure or practice meant to deceive or defraud

So by using word "trick" are you acknowledging his marketing was deceptive and fraudulent or was the word "trick" just a poor choice of words to describe your thoughts on this?

"trick" noun: 1. a cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.

Does that not describe the situation? Seems like you want to use a different word. It doesn't really matter to me.

Next you wrote: We all already know his "business" model is unsustainable when measured against proper practices.

Are you saying you believe his business practices are honest but badly done?

I'm not saying his business practices are honest and never have. I get the sense like you're trying to straw man my position. Again.

Warn newcomers about what? An honest but poorly run business or that is all a con and take advantage as best you can?

Warn newcomers about the past and current business practices of FS. People are smart enough to make up their own decision on what they want to do. I'm not going to tell people what they need to do, and you shouldn't either.

The real question can be summed as, do you really believe he has operated Front Sight honestly and his only mistake has been some bad business decisions?

No, I don't think he runs his business honestly. Please refer to the definition of "trick" from the top.

If it were not for all the facts that have been unearthed this past week that position would be a valid defense.

At present based on all the facts that are now known I do not believe ignorance can be used as a defense.

OK where is the emoji throwing a ball?

Again you're straw manning. Why do you think I'm "defending" FS? And again, you're painting only two options:

Option 1: Walk away from everything related to FS. Close your account and never look back. Pat yourself on the back for being righteous.

Option 2: Merely attending FS means you're an immoral SOB supporting the devil incarnate. Next stop, hell.

Sorry, there's just more to it than that. If you disagree with that, then I fully expect you to close your FS account, forfeit anything in your account, and never return to FS. If you show up at FS again, then you must (by your own limitations) be an Option 2 person.

What's ironic is you're making it your mission to argue with people who don't agree with your narrow perspective on FS. I don't care what you do. Attend FS, don't attend FS, sue FS. I don't care, you do you.

[rodralig]

Battered woman syndrome?

You can see it play out here on this board. All of those who went off with I am out, screw Piazza. Then the little claw back of I would pay for this or that, that would be fair. Then screw him, then well I guess I will stay if nothing changes or if I give him some cash I can then use the fake money for background for a couple of years.

Why do you feel people should defend their decision to frequent FS, especially if it is not costing them any extra money to attend classes?

[tanks]

Stockholm syndrome is an emotional response. It happens to some abuse and hostage victims when they have positive feelings toward an abuser or captor.
Tank you do not need to defend your self to any one. But then why are yo seemingly needing our approval. If you really did not care you would just do what you want and not waste your time posting.

Let's see I paid $100 for membership and got back $50. Been to a number of training courses, one as recent as last week.

I don't see how that translates to being abused.

I definitely do not need your approval, just don't appreciate people trying to bully others to their point of view using emotional and false moral equivalency arguments. Hence, the reason for my posts.

As mentioned by myself and others, if the terms do not change and there are no extra fees, I don't see why people should stop going to FS if it suits them.

People will do what works for them despite your hate/animosity towards Piazza and FS.

[Sam1234]

Why do you feel people should defend their decision to frequent FS, especially if it is not costing them any extra money to attend classes?

Also, all this talk about fraud, criminal conduct etc. are just allegations at this point. If there is provable fraud etc. he will end up in jail and the problem of his leadership at FS will solve itself.

Just to be clear I am not defending his marketing methods etc.. However, you are putting up a criminal mastermind straw man and then insinuating from that anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up.

That is not the case, and the fat lady has yet to sing.

You asked: "However, you are putting up a criminal mastermind straw man and then insinuating from that anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up."

I am not putting an imaginary criminal mastermind (straw man) person. I am putting up a real criminal and fraudster.

Am I insinuating anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up."

Well if you understand Front Sight was founded and even now being run on a con, then yes that is exactly what I am saying.

If you are ignorant of the facts and can't see it is a con then I would understand that position.

So the question hasn't changed are you ignorant of the facts or are you one who doesn't care and is going to get theirs?

No one seems willing to answer that question.

[tanks]

For handgun, absolutely one should go to TPC if they are serious about handgun mastery. I have been there over 20 times to date.

That being said, a family of four going for a vacation and getting an instruction to firearms FS might be a more economical choice.

Also, I was really impressed with the shotgun course at FS. So, would recommend it for anyone wanting to learn how to run a shotgun.

[w00dmaster]

I do not need approval, oks or anything. See when you do the right thing no one will judge you or argue with you. I did nothing wrong, I support all my FS friends that got screwed by this guy and want to see this place get taken over by some one who has morals. That being said I do not need to go to any of the places GS, TR or others every few weeks or even months so I do not need FS like some of you seem to. If your training did not leave you with enough things to perfect maybe it was not that good I don't know just thinking. IMHO

[tanks]

You asked: "However, you are putting up a criminal mastermind straw man and then insinuating from that anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up."

I am not putting an imaginary criminal mastermind (straw man) person. I am putting up a real criminal and fraudster.

Am I insinuating anyone that goes to FS is just as morally corrupt because they are "supporting" him by showing up."

Well if you understand Front Sight was founded and even now being run on a con, then yes that is exactly what I am saying.

If you are ignorant of the facts and can't see it is a con then I would understand that position.

So the question hasn't changed are you ignorant of the facts or are you one who doesn't care and is going to get theirs?

No one seems willing to answer that question.

Can you please refer me to the court docket document that lists his conviction? Otherwise, it is just an allegation not a fact.

I have answered your question, I will go to FS if and when they offer courses I wish to take as long as it does not cost me any additional membership funds or force me to buy overpriced ammo.

I am not responsible for your bad business decisions. Buying a resort property in the middle of the desert, seriously?

[Citizen_B]

I am not responsible for your bad business decisions. Buying a resort property in the middle of the desert, seriously?

I have my disagreements with Sam also, but I'd cut him some slack if not out of courtesy. Iggy can be convincing.

[Sam1234]

I would say that is a honest and legitimate concern. No one can really answer that for you. I can only voice my position and reasons.

For the record I too would love to go, but...................as long as a criminal is at the helm I can't look myself in the mirror and go.

I think the answer is somewhat simple yet difficult.

If you believe Front Sight is a criminal enterprise run by fraud and can overlook that then go. If you can't overlook this then probably best not to go.

If you think it's been run poorly but honestly, go.

Also we really don't know what the final episode will bring.

[Sam1234]

Can you please refer me to the court docket document that lists his conviction? Otherwise, it is just an allegation not a fact.

I have answered your question, I will go to FS if and when they offer courses I wish to take as long as it does not cost me any additional membership funds or force me to buy overpriced ammo.

I am not responsible for your bad business decisions. Buying a resort property in the middle of the desert, seriously?

I guess I will need to interpret your answer to be even though you know this has be a scam you don't care and are going to get yours.

I have repeatedly stated my position, if this is yours just say it and we are done.

[-hanko]

I have my disagreements with Sam also, but I'd cut him some slack if not out of courtesy. Iggy can be convincing.

Given Piazza's history, how in hell can he be convincing.

I'm definitely convinced that when he opens his mouth, lies exit.

[mitori]

Lando: Front Sight members

Darth Vader: Iggy Pizza.

[Citizen_B]

Given Piazza's history, how in hell can he be convincing.

I'm definitely convinced that when he opens his mouth, lies exit.

Ok I'll qualify it with he can be convincing to some. Some people don't know his history, some people choose to believe he changed, some people ignore it but believe in the cause, some people choose to treat the situation as it really is. I personally think people should be free to choose what they believe in and want to do. People are people and so also make mistakes. I strongly believe in personal responsibility, but also have sympathy and compassion for those that innocently pull a bad hand.

[w00dmaster]

What amazes me is people who say FS is a good value? $50 lifetime memberships? How could anyone say you would not get your money’s worth, really! That being said then now training compared to what? There nothing to compare it to because no other training site needs to give their classes away? That’s where its get weird. They say we do more classes than anyone else? Yes, at free after the first $50 investment. Do you really think Gun Site could not shovel thousands through their place if the ran IGGY’s business model? IGGY has nothing to be proud of he is a thief and a pathological liar and running a PONZI scheme. He stole hundreds of thousands of dollars from his core members who built FS and has not even delivered even a monument with engraved names for Gods sake. Nothing, I do not think anyone has ever not delivered anything for 20 plus years that title he owns. His claim to fame is no one talks anything but shi# about him. What a legacy. So if you want to cut him slack feel free but you’re an idiot if you do. I will never have to justify my relationship with him I have never said anything good about him and did not take any of his pixy dust money or get your friends on board with me deals. I have a clear conscience.

[beanz2]

I recently have been made aware that FS had rescinded the requirement to use ammo from Bunker… That said, in other groups - the consensus seems that I should continue with my scheduled private training next week. … Thought processes like “milk FS for what it is worth…” “get excellent training while I can possibly can…” “go as long as FS honors the original terms of the contract…” “good opportunity to see how things may have changed…”

But still - am on the fence on this one… I just don’t feel like it, especially after what Iggy did… Hhhhmmm… (For “excellent training” - there are other avenues where I can also get training that is on par and/or even better than FS)

Oh well… I have about 3-days to make a decision.


_

I would go if I were you. From the latest that we've read, thing are remaining the same. For now.

Unless the instructors are leaving in droves, you will still get the same quality of training as pre-January 22nd. Whether you go taking the class or not, Iggy is not going to change his personality, approach to mass mailings, or his business plans. Can you get a similar level of training elsewhere in 3 days?

At the end of the day, your decision is only going to affect you. Not Iggy. Not Sam1234, not w00dmaster, not Citizen B, not tanks. You.