9mm vs. 40: real world DOCUMENT defensive case study?

[AngelDecoys]

I wasn't trying to come across as harsh as it may have seemed, and it wasn't directed at you. You've only asked the questions, and very genuinely at that. I was only pointing out how ignorant and naive it is to say something along those lines. Those instructors usually quote mashall or sanow's work when coming up with their mantra. I don't think theres a statistician in the world that would give any validity to their numbers.

Absolutely agree with everything you're saying. Generally, we all have to filter the information given. For some time now, I've been of the general impression that one caliber was better than another since "those in the seemly know" say with certainty, and conviction. I now have some information that may 'shift' the paradigm of thought.

It certainly seems from Martin Fackler's work that there's a lot of information out there that is myth. Got a lot more reading to do but you've pointed me in some new directions. I hate giving bad advice, especially if someone else may be depending on that advice for self defense.

The worst part about getting older and learning a lot more, is both the realization that you know less than you initially thought, that you learned some of it incorrectly, and that there's so much more to know then time allows.

[11Z50]

In an auto, it's 9 or 45 for me. If you have full-cap mags, go 9. If you don't, go for a 10 rd 45. I don't see any need for the 40 but that's just me.

In a revolver, go .357 with a light, fast bullet. The 110 JHP makes a big hole.

IMHO, you can't go wrong with the 45.

[paradox]

Can you recommend something better? I tend to swap out my ammo bi-annually, due to weather and paranoid reliability.

The currently accepted top shelf ammo is:

Barnes XPB
Speer Gold Dot
Winchester Ranger-T
Winchester Partition Gold
Federal Bonded
Federal HST

These were all developed after the FBI started requiring gel testing with intermediate barriers like cloth, glass, and steel.

[grywlfbg]

I have a few boxes of Federal 9mm 147gr "Hi-shok" JHP's. Are these better than the hydra-shoks for defense purposes?

[grywlfbg]

To get back to the OP, if you're thinking about competitions, depending on what org you shoot under they may have major/minor categories. Like for IPSC it's based on a "power factor" but with stock guns and ammo, 9mm will be in the minor category and .40 will be in major. The difference is you get more points per hit if you're shooting major. So if you can learn to shoot .40 anywhere close to as well as you can shoot 9mm then you'll be points ahead at the end of the day.

[FlyingPen]

If someone was guaranteed to hit a major organ in my body, I'd rather they use a 9mm than a 40 or 45.

I'll probably still die anyway but I'd prefer my chances with the 9mm.

I think beyond just ballistics gel, it would be interesting to see characteristics of ammo depending on angular hits, barrier penetration, and what range does to penetration.

This is probably why 357 SIG is a preferred round, it'll penetrate barriers most other calibers cannot while offering similar recoil and capacity to 40SW. It is also reportedly more accurate than 40SW but I doubt that matters too much in engagements.

[AngelDecoys]

To get back to the OP, if you're thinking about competitions, depending on what org you shoot under they may have major/minor categories. Like for IPSC it's based on a "power factor" but with stock guns and ammo, 9mm will be in the minor category and .40 will be in major. The difference is you get more points per hit if you're shooting major. So if you can learn to shoot .40 anywhere close to as well as you can shoot 9mm then you'll be points ahead at the end of the day.

That's pretty much where my confusion, or 'paradigm' was on initially looking at the differences between 9mm and .40 for defensive purposes. Minor/Major caliber are terms for category. Useful for competition, but not analogous in terms of ballistic performance for defensive purposes. 9mm and .40 appear to penetrate equally well. And bigger does not always equate to better. Putting gun magazine articles aside (propaganda), one caliber over another seems to have a lot of associated myth surrounding them.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Its a good link on the topic. Eye opening and worthy of several hours of reading. Sure has changed my perspective on the topic and I started out thinking anything less than .40 was inadequate.

If someone was guaranteed to hit a major organ in my body, I'd rather they use a 9mm than a 40 or 45.

If the bullet hits a major organ like your heart, your head, or CNS, the result is still the same. Sometimes I must remind myself that more deaths have occured from .22LR than any other round. The .22 round would not be a choice I would recommend for use in HD, but 9mm and .357sig are plenty adequate for me to recommend. And, it might be preferable depending on a persons ability (Keeping Speed-Accuracy-Power in consideration).

[FlyingPen]

No, the result is not the same. I'm not saying a direct hit but glancing blows or near hits, in less than optimal cases, I think this is where caliber can make a difference.

Fired straight into a big block of jelly, they might perform similar but I'm curious what performance is like over range, through barriers, angular hits, what happens on impact with bone, etc.

[taloft]

Hydra Shocks are some of the worst performing HPs on the market: they tend to get plugged up and fail to expand when shot at anything other than bare skin.

Really, I've never heard anything about this, just the opposite in fact. Don't get me wrong, all HP's can get plugged and fail to expand but, I've never heard that Hydra Shocks were more prone to do so than other brands. I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Was this from a study? Please PM me links, info., etc. I typically load Hydra Shocks for home defense along with another mag of FMJ for penetrating hard cover. However, if this is from credible sources I'd be inclined to shift brand. Sorry about the thread hijack.

Regarding the OP, I own both 9mm and .40 cal. pistols. My impression is that the recoil on a .40 is a bit more "snappy" than a 9mm. I agree that shot placement is the most critical factor in a defensive situation. It doesn't matter how fantastic a round is if it doesn't hit anything. Practice is the key and cheaper ammo lends to more practice. Unless you reload, .40 is going to be more expensive than 9mm. On average, approx. $5.00 a box more than 9mm. I think that the .40 S&W is a good round. As others have suggested, getting a conversion kit is a great way to enjoy the best of both worlds without sacrificing the .40. If it is your intention to compete in IPSC/Steel keep in mind that there are different classes for different types and calibers of guns. 9mm is very popular for competition shooting due to low recoil. What is good for one thing doesn't mean it will do the others as well. I wouldn't stop shooting until the threat is stopped. The police do not require more paperwork for shooting more than one round. However, there are many cases of 9mm being deflected by windshields, car doors, etc. Then again, how many windshields or car doors do you have in your house? Just some things to consider.

[FlyingPen]

From what I've read, Hydrashocks are indeed not very good hollow points. The Federal HST is supposed to be a much nicer round.

[M. Sage]

BTW - With 3 college degrees, 2 in the biology field, I can't tell you what makes an attacker cease an attack.

Pain (unreliable), blood loss (usually takes some time, multiple holes help), or central nervous system damage... If the attacker is committed enough to continue in the face of a firearm.

[aanthunter7]

Good reading, thanks everybody.

[AngelDecoys]

Pain (unreliable), blood loss (usually takes some time, multiple holes help), or central nervous system damage... If the attacker is committed enough to continue in the face of a firearm.

Yes, of course on all that. Was considering other factors but hadn't read the linked information. Somewhere I had gotten the myth of 1,2 shots stopping someone immediately. Why I had disregarded equal and opposite force, ie basic physics is another story.

No, the result is not the same. I'm not saying a direct hit but glancing blows or near hits, in less than optimal cases, I think this is where caliber can make a difference.

Actually go and look through the link provided. Read the articles linked there. The experts would disagree with what you're saying. Caliber size at .38 and above seem to make less of a difference then you might think.

[1lostinspace]

For a 9mm I go with Winchester +P+ 127 gr T series
with +P+ pressures you have good stopping power.

[nothing4u]

Shoot till they stop moving, in the military we have the luxury of high capacity mags for the M9. In California you have 10 rounds, might as go with the one that makes a bigger hole and learn how to shoot it well. Yes shot placement is what really matters regardless of what caliber you choose, but who here has met a bad guy that stands still and lets you makel nice holes in them? In a real life situation where the bad guy wants to kill you, only 3 things happen, 1. You kill him 2. He kills you. 3. You both kill each other.