Group sizes with Irons Only

[TimRB]

Here is an experiment to see how good your vision is when shooting with iron sights. I posted it here (or somewhere) once before, but that was a long time ago, so here it is again...

You will need an assistant, and you will need some way to make your rifle absolutely safe, such as removing the bolt.

1) Point your rifle at a blank wall or something similar 20-30 feet away and lock it into a vise. You must be able to see through your sights as if you were shooting the rifle, but you must not be able to move your rifle even a tiny bit.

2) Center a blank piece of paper whereever your rifle is pointing and attach it to the wall.

3) Make a small aiming black of whatever size you want on a separate piece of paper. Round is best.

4) While you look through the sights, have your assistant move the aiming black up/down left/right until you think it is perfectly aligned with the sights.

5) When the aiming black is perfectly aligned, have your assistant put a pin hole through it (dead center) into the blank piece of paper. This is why a round aiming black is best. Have your assistant take the aiming black away and repeat.

6) When you have taken enough "shots," take down the blank piece of paper and measure your group size. This will represent the very best you can do with a perfect rifle shooting perfect ammo, etc.

Tim

[Ahhnother8]

What do you guys shoot with irons only?

A bit under 1 MOA with a sling in the prone position. Off a bench would be better than that.

[SixPointEight]

Op, I just saw you're in Sac. We should go out to cordova and I'll show you what the "average person shoots"

I've seen people "sighting in their deer rifle" with an 8-10" group...with a scope. I've seen 3 holes in paper from two boxes(40 rounds) of ammo. I've seen shots miss the target at 25yards from iron sights etc.

[Sheepdog1968]

3-4 MOA with irons is good shooting. Take an Appleseed class and that will help improve your marksmanship.

[sfonelson]

Sfonelson are you using the smaller aperture of the AR or the larger one? Smaller aperture will give you a more precise aiming/sight picture.

After you have done what Rock6.3 suggested, try switching to a different powder since you mentioned earlier that increasing the powder charge of H4895 seems to widen the grouping.

I do have a smaller aperture already. I have the RRA NM carry handle. It's like looking through a pinhole. I like it.

Op, I just saw you're in Sac. We should go out to cordova and I'll show you what the "average person shoots"

I've seen people "sighting in their deer rifle" with an 8-10" group...with a scope. I've seen 3 holes in paper from two boxes(40 rounds) of ammo. I've seen shots miss the target at 25yards from iron sights etc.

Hah! I know what you mean. I shot there before learning about Sac Valley. It's amazing how people miss the target completely when shooting only 25 yards away.

3-4 MOA with irons is good shooting. Take an Appleseed class and that will help improve your marksmanship.

I've been looking into those. I will probably hit one up this summer. I have the ammo, I just need to find the time.

[jimmykan]

Here is a group that I shot with iron sights last weekend.
It was shot from a bench with the handguard resting on sandbags.
The flier was my fault, the handguard isn't free-floated, and I was pressing too hard into the sandbags.


Here is the rifle. BCM 16" Mid Length Upper with LMT A2 Style Rear Sight.


I shoot my best groups with a 6 o'clock hold on a bullseye that is the same apparent width as the front sight blade.
I also like to paint a white dot onto the front sight, I don't aim with it, but the dot has to be in sharp focus when I'm lining up the shot.
The bullseye is blurry, and so is the rear aperture.


I also mark down my windage zeros for 55 and 62 grain ammunition.
For some reason, faster 55 grain loads hit a little left, slower 62 grain loads hit a little right.

[xrMike]

1st batch of .223 reloads (.766 MOA) -- 23.2 grains TAC, 69gr Noslers, 10 rounds, 100 yards bench-rested, irons:



2nd batch of .223 reloads (.700 MOA) -- 23.2 grains TAC, 69gr Noslers, 10 rounds, 100 yards bench-rested, irons:



That is total cherry-picking above. Those are the best 2 bulls I've ever shot over the last 5 years, since I bought my AR. This is a lot more typical for me -- about an inch-and-a-half:



I really need to get out to one of those SAC matches. 100 to 300 yards (the limit at my range) is boring.

[Jonathan Doe]

It will all depend on how your rifle is set up and what your capability is. My match M-1A, with Krieger barrel and McMillan stock with match sights and bedding job, shoots very well. This is my sample 10 shot groups at 100 yards with iron sights. My disclaimer: My aging old eyes would not allow me shoot any better groups as I used to shoot.

I am surprised that everyone is shooting off sand bag or from the bench. My group is from prone with sling, and weaing a shooting jacket.

[Justintoxicated]

impressive, I have a hard time getting such tight groups at 100 yards. I don't know how you all do it, considering my FSP on my 16" AR, pretty much covers up the entire target.

Now with some magnification and the right ammo, things are much easier.

[elnielsen]

Last weekend I took my new M1A Loaded out for it's second visit to the range. I shot four five-round groups at 100 yards using FGMM 168gr. My last 5 round group measured 15/16ths of an inch. Then I shot two 5 round groups of 1993 Radway Green British NATO surplus, I got a 4 1/2" group and a 6 1/2" group.

When aiming in, I cannot utilize the 6-o'clock method, I was trained to cut the bullseye in half and that's how I'm going to do it. I was sandbagged on the front end, and I crossed my arms and fit the rifle in between my mesh of arms. I was focusing as best I could at the frost sight post. And it was all very blurry. I would inhale, and see the entire bullseye, then I would exhale until I saw a blurry-ish half. Then, I would note that side to side, in the blurriness, I could see about equal thicknesses of white target-backdrop on each side to confirm my centeredness. I also had brought my crappy old beat up sunglasses, so I was trying to find clear spots in the lenz to sight in through, so I feared that would mess up a natural stock-cheek weld, however the grouping states I overcame it. Also, I would often breathe to locate the bullseye, and if I hadn't taken the shot within about 5 seconds of sighting in, I would break and re-sight in. As was stated above, if you go holding your bead too long, it goes bad, your body taxes the oxygen from that last breath and your eyes go blurry and you lose that ideal sight picture.

Results: FANTASTIC I couldn't be more stoked on this rifle. Woohoo!!!

[GeoffLinder]

1 MOA or better off the bench is very doable with iron sights IF the following are ALL true:

1. Your rifle/ammo combo is capable of it
2. Your trigger has a predictable let off AND you can consistently stroke it through without disturbing the sight picture
3. You consistently use good technique and take your time doing it.