Group sizes with Irons Only

[sfonelson]

So I've been shooting my handloads now for several months.

Sierra HPBT 69gr over 24.5 grains of H4895.

My best group so far was about 3-4 MOA with 10 shots at 100 yards. I only shoot with irons. I was also shooting off sand bags.

I have no idea if this is decent or not. What do you guys shoot with irons only?

[sfonelson]

I forgot to mention, this is with my AR, and M1 Garand.

[Rock6.3]

I'm confused, why are you shooting 69 grain bullets out of your M1 Garand?

[sfonelson]

I'm confused, why are you shooting 69 grain bullets out of your M1 Garand?

Further clarification. =)

With the Garand I am shooting 155gr Hornady A-max over 45gr of H4895. At least I think it's 45 grains. I can't remember off the top of my head right now.

[Rock6.3]

4MOA out of an M1 is perfectly acceptable. This is a battle rifle, not a marksman rifle (unless it has been accurized by a competent smith.)

I did some testing of the AMax bullets in a bench rifle and was not impressed with their accuracy (groups were larger than 1MOA, where a better bullet was sub MOA), but for an M1 they are perfectly adequate.

For the AR-15 you may be able to do better by working up a load that works well in your rifle, and/or improving your bench technique.

[GeoffLinder]

Good iron sight shooters (NRA High Power Master & High Master rated) will shoot sub-moa with irons all day long at distances out to 1000 yards. Small group sizes typically have little to do with the type of sights (scope or irons) used and a whole lot to do with consistency of hold and proper sight picture awareness.

Most folks who can't shoot MOA or better with a rifle capable of it are usually doing so because of lack of trigger control (or a lousy trigger) and the inability to get the shot off while the sights are properly aligned.

I cannot count the times I have shot other folks iron sighted AR's after they complained the rifle won't group and found it to hold MOA or better.

Most any decent AR is capable of better than 2 MOA when good ammo and proper shooting technique is used. Quite a few AR's will hold MOA or better with good ammo and technique.

[Cuerno_de_Chivo]

Good iron sight shooters (NRA High Power Master & High Master rated) will shoot sub-moa with irons all day long at distances out to 1000 yards. Small group sizes typically have little to do with the type of sights (scope or irons) used and a whole lot to do with consistency of hold and proper sight picture awareness.

Most folks who can't shoot MOA or better with a rifle capable of it are usually doing so because of lack of trigger control (or a lousy trigger) and the inability to get the shot off while the sights are properly aligned.

I cannot count the times I have shot other folks iron sighted AR's after they complained the rifle won't group and found it to hold MOA or better.

Most any decent AR is capable of better than 2 MOA when good ammo and proper shooting technique is used. Quite a few AR's will hold MOA or better with good ammo and technique.

Do they have scopes inside their eyes or what? I dont see how you could hit anything at that range with your naked eye, but i mean i just have horrible eye sight but still, thats pretty incredible.

[Rock6.3]

Do they have scopes inside their eyes or what? I dont see how you could hit anything at that range with your naked eye, but i mean i just have horrible eye sight but still, thats pretty incredible.

Lots of practice and near perfect technique. Something we can all aim for.

[CSACANNONEER]

Do they have scopes inside their eyes or what? I dont see how you could hit anything at that range with your naked eye, but i mean i just have horrible eye sight but still, thats pretty incredible.

Quality irons work just as well as optics do, even at 1000 yards. Quality trigger time means a lot more than magnifying optics do. That said, I don't know any shooter who doesn't shoot >moa groups at 1000 on occassion. There are just too many variables with conditions at that distance. I've seen very top shooters put a flyer 12"-15" outside their groups. It happens with or without optics and there is nothing one can do about it but cry and go on to the next shot.

[sfonelson]

Do they have scopes inside their eyes or what? I dont see how you could hit anything at that range with your naked eye, but i mean i just have horrible eye sight but still, thats pretty incredible.

That's partly my problem. I mean, I can't see the bullseye on a target that I am shooting at 100 yards away, I just aim there because I know it's there.

I work hard with my breathing, cheek weld, and hold every time I shoot. Over time, I have consistently gotten better. I was just curious and what's considered "good".

[GeoffLinder]

The target bullseye should be a blurry black dot and the front sight should be sharp and crisp. The front sight is what you should focus on, not the target. From there on out it's all about timing the shot letoff to coincide with the proper sight picture. Acquiring the proper sight picture requires practice, practice and more practice.

Get the book called "The Rifle Shooter" by David Tubb. He is the best iron sight rifle shooter there is. Pay special attention to what he says about "shooting on approach" rather than trying to "hold on target" until the shot lets off.

http://www.zediker.com/books/rifleshooter/rifleshootermain.html

The one truth to remember here is, the longer you hold, the worse you hold

[Rock6.3]

That's partly my problem. I mean, I can't see the bullseye on a target that I am shooting at 100 yards away, I just aim there because I know it's there.

I work hard with my breathing, cheek weld, and hold every time I shoot. Over time, I have consistently gotten better. I was just curious and what's considered "good".

It sounds like time to work on the basics:
1. If you cannot see it, you cannot pull the trigger.

2 Use a target that you can actually see, no matter how large that needs to be,

3. then use a 6:00 hold so that the target is sitting on your front sight post (like a pumkin on a post). This is a repeatable aiming point unlike the center of the black dot (exactly where is the center?). When you are on target change the focus of your eye so that you are focused upon the front sight (the target should be blurry)

4. Make sure your front sand bag is not touching anything on your rifle other than the handguard. If the front sling/bipod stud is hitting the bag it will have an impact on your accuracy.

5. Employ good trigger control. When you pull the trigger be sure to pull straight back, then hold the trigger to the back until you call the shot.

6. Pay attention to your shoulder contact. Don't push into the stock (because that pressure is not perfectly repeatable), and your grip should be firm but not strong (like shaking hands with grandma, don't hurt her).

[1lostinspace]

I shoot a standard AR15 with Irons and if your grouping like that with 5 shots then it's good shooting. Try those bright orange targets that stick, your groups will get tighter if your not using them now.

[GeoffLinder]

It sounds like time to work on the basics:
1. If you cannot see it, you cannot pull the trigger.

2 Use a target that you can actually see, no matter how large that needs to be,

3. then use a 6:00 hold so that the target is sitting on your front sight post (like a pumkin on a post). This is a repeatable aiming point unlike the center of the black dot (exactly where is the center?). When you are on target change the focus of your eye so that you are focused upon the front sight (the target should be blurry)

4. Make sure your front sand bag is not touching anything on your rifle other than the handguard. If the front sling/bipod stud is hitting the bag it will have an impact on your accuracy.

5. Employ good trigger control. When you pull the trigger be sure to pull straight back, then hold the trigger to the back until you call the shot.

6. Pay attention to your shoulder contact. Don't push into the stock (because that pressure is not perfectly repeatable), and your grip should be firm but not strong (like shaking hands with grandma, don't hurt her).

Agreed on all, especially the 6 o'clock hold, also called a lollypop hold. A small sliver of space between the bullseye and the top of the front sight post works a lot better than burying any of the front sight in the bullseye.

8-10" bullseye size at 100 yards ought to be just fine. You will be more precise in the long run using a black aiming bullseye of the appropriate size than using a colored bullseye as your aiming point. It is harder to judge light gaps consistently with colored targets and sight posts than it is using black on black.

[xrMike]

Do they have scopes inside their eyes or what? I dont see how you could hit anything at that range with your naked eye, but i mean i just have horrible eye sight but still, thats pretty incredible.

I don't know exactly how big the bulls are on those 1000-yard targets, but they are HUGE. Aren't they like 6-feet in diameter or something? Even the X-ring is 10-inches in diameter I believe (which would be 1MOA).

As long as the bullseye is about the same width as your front post (at the distance you're shooting at), it's big enough to shoot at pretty accurately with irons.