Group sizes with Irons Only

[CSACANNONEER]

I don't know exactly how big the bulls are on those 1000-yard targets, but they are HUGE. Aren't they like 6-feet in diameter or something? Even the X-ring is 10-inches in diameter I believe (which would be 1MOA).

As long as the bullseye is about the same width as your front post (at the distance you're shooting at), it's big enough to shoot at pretty accurately with irons.

Yep, 6'x6'. I am not sure if the Xring is standard on all the different targets shot at 1000 though.

[GeoffLinder]

I don't know exactly how big the bulls are on those 1000-yard targets, but they are HUGE. Aren't they like 6-feet in diameter or something? Even the X-ring is 10-inches in diameter I believe (which would be 1MOA).

As long as the bullseye is about the same width as your front post (at the distance you're shooting at), it's big enough to shoot at pretty accurately with irons.

NRA High Power Rifle target sizes as follows (black bullseye size).

200 Yard: 13" (9 ring black)
300 Yard: 19" (8 ring black)
500 Yard: 24" (8 ring black)
600 Yard: 36" (7 ring black)
800-1000 Yard: 44" (8 ring black)

In all cases the X ring is one MOA in diameter (1" at 100 yard, 2" at 200 yard and so on...). 10 ring size is typically twice the size of the X ring or roughly 2 MOA.

Typical front post widths used in these competitions on AR's run from .045" to .080" depending on shooter pref. Thinnest you can focus on is usually the best on these targets. Having the front post appear near same width as bullseye to your eye is helpful but not mandatory IME.

I just switched back to a .060" front post from .040" because my eyes can't focus it as well as they used to :-(

[jimmykan]

Even the best iron sight shooters need a target big enough to see with the naked eye. It's not like magnified optics: you can't just put a quarter out in the dirt at 200 yards and tell an iron-sights shooter to hit it. But if you tape it to the center of the X-ring of a standard 200 yard NRA high power target and put the target 200 yards away, an accomplished shooter will hit it in a few shots.

[mif_slim]

DNot worry too much about it. That's great shooting. You only hear of sub-MOA with iron sights on the net.

[CSACANNONEER]

You only hear of sub-MOA with iron sights on the net.

But, if you go to the right type of match, you'll actually SEE them.

[mif_slim]

Of course, I'm not ruling out that it cannot be done, but those who can are few and far between.

My point is the Internet makes it seems like everyone is shooting sub-MOA and for a normal person to see everywhere on line of it, makes them think their skill is lacking when in reality the average shooter shoots just like him/her.

[SixPointEight]

3-5moa is my average group. On rare ocassions with very good ammo i can produce an moa group. When the stars align and i havent been drinking coffee haha

[Jonathan Doe]

It will all depend on how your rifle is set up and what your capability is. My match M-1A, with Krieger barrel and McMillan stock with match sights and bedding job, shoots very well. This is my sample 10 shot groups at 100 yards with iron sights. My disclaimer: My aging old eyes would not allow me shoot any better groups as I used to shoot.

[sfonelson]

I pulled out one of my targets from a few months ago. This is a ten round group from 100 yards, irons only, bench rest on bags.

AR-15, BCM Govt 20" upper

Handloads: Sierra HPBT 69gr over 24.5gr of H4895.

I have worked up this load from minimum to just a little bit lower from max, and this was the most accurate. Higher charges seemed to be all over the place.



I've tried the lollipop, 6 o'clock hold. It works well, if you keep shooting at the same target. Sometimes I'm shooting at the regular targets, other times I'm plinking away at clay pigeons from different distances. I seem to prefer the center hold for my way of shooting right now. Maybe when I start shooting longer distances, 300+ yards, then maybe I'll switch back over to the 6 o'clock hold.

Thanks for all your input guys!

[kurac]

here is a group on a good day with my favorite M1, notice the flier 100yards, off of sand-bags

Also the target is upside down in the photo but at least I got it right at the range

[sfonelson]

^^^ 100 yards?

[kurac]

^^^ 100 yards?

yes, I edited to add off of sandbags. Also, this Garand sports NM front and rear sights as well as a Douglas Heavy Match barrel. I did not glass bed the action or unitize the front handguards though.

[killshot44]

You only hear of sub-MOA with iron sights on the net.

But, if you go to the right type of match, you'll actually SEE them.

True.
At yesterday's match at Sacramento Valley, the top Service Rifle/Match Rifle shooter shot a combined 790-29X out of a possible 800-80x.
At 600yds he only dropped two points. The match combined shooting while standing, sitting and prone at 200/300/600yds.
All unsupported, no bags.

If you want to improve, come shoot matches. You're just competing against yourself the first few times.
I'd venture to say you'll learn more there in one weekend than you will in a year at the 100yd line.

For those whose eyes don't work with metallic sights anymore (like me), this year you can shoot these matches all prone with a scope as in F-class. Those big X-rings on the HighPower targets are an esteem-builder! The true F-class targets all have Half-MOA X-rings.

[30Cal]

I can hit the 1MoA mark from time to time off bags with my match M1A, match loads and 3 or 5rd groups. 2 minute is pretty typical.


The aiming black is a distraction. Focus on the front sight. You'll probably shoot better with iron sights if you shoot at the backside of the target.

[ireload]

Sfonelson are you using the smaller aperture of the AR or the larger one? Smaller aperture will give you a more precise aiming/sight picture.

After you have done what Rock6.3 suggested, try switching to a different powder since you mentioned earlier that increasing the powder charge of H4895 seems to widen the grouping.