Unknown Reload Failure - Ideas?

[bheard1836]

Good evening all,

Had a problem with a .44 Mag Handload last week and wanted to see if anyone had any ideas.

Load is a 240 gr RNFP on top of 10 gr Tite Group and a Winchester large rifle primer and shot from my Rosi levergun.

Ammo loaded using my RCBS chargemaster so I am 100% sure it was right at 10.0 gr.

Being an idiot, I lost the brass and cannot share a picture.

Round went bang and felt normal. Didn't want to cycle and when levered more aggressively the bottom 3/4 of the brass came out. It looked like there was a second piece of brass nested in the first - "two layered" looking. That was my first prognosis - that a piece of 9mm nested in the .44 when I picked it up last time and managed to stay in there through the sorting and cleaning process. As I thought more about it, I do not think it would be possible to have a spent 9 nested in the 44 and they both decap so I could add a new primer.

This may remain a mystery since I lost the brass but please share any thoughts you have.

The end of the case is still in the Rossi barrel so a trip to the smith is in order for her.

Thanks

[bazineta]

The RNFP -- jacketed or not?

[bheard1836]

Plated not jacketed

[bazineta]

Well, plating would be too thin for my guess then; I'd have gone with some sort of odd jacket separation, i.e., leaving most of it behind and looking like brass in the brass, as I agree that I don't see how, with the 9mm thesis, that you could decap.

[Bill Steele]

Did you mean to say WLR and not WLP for the primers? Because 44 Mag cases use large pistol primers.

If you did mean LRP then you were at max load for Titegroup and with the rifle primers likely took you past max pressure. You may have essentially had a sticky case due to over pressure and when you went to extract it, it separated.

Did the cases you were using have one of those cannelure bands some manufacturers put on the waist of the case, supposedly to limit bullet setback?

In any case, you probably should step back from using LRP if you did as they are taller and won't fit well in most 44 cases, they can sit proud after being fully seated as they are taller.

Just a few thoughts.

PS - at max pressure (even with LPP) that load is going to take most plated bullets past their max velocity, so you might get some plating being stripped. It doesn't explain the case end being left behind, but accuracy might suffer.

[bheard1836]

Yes - my mistake it is WLP as prescribed in Lee Modern Reloading v2.
I was at max 10.0 gr and worked up to it in 3 prior lower power loadings.
Cases looks smooth - was once fired brass that I purchased new (don't recall the brand).

[Bill Steele]

Yes - my mistake it is WLP as prescribed in Lee Modern Reloading v2.
I was at max 10.0 gr and worked up to it in 3 prior lower power loadings.
Cases looks smooth - was once fired brass that I purchased new (don't recall the brand).

OK, better, but maybe makes the mystery a little tougher.

Depending on what bullet mfg, it may be that you stripped enough copper with those velocities that you raised pressures enough to stick the case and compromise it. Or maybe you just got a bad case, although you would expect it wouldn't be seriously stuck without some serious pressure.

You might inquire from the vendor that sold you the bullets what their max velocity was for the ones you loaded. I know Berry's has historically been soft, while Xtreme pretty stout on the plating.

I love a good mystery.

[noylj]

Why would you use TiteGroup for a Max .44 mag load?
That powder, along with N310 and Clays, produce pressure spikes--particularly near max loads.
Now, the "strange" thing is Hodgdon is still quoting the load at 37,700 CUP (which should have been eliminated about 20 years ago), when SAAMI specifies PSI for all loads and, for .44 Mag, specifies 36,000 psi. Be nice to know what 37,7000 CUP is in .44 Mag in psi...
You add that a pressure-spike powder to a large case and you are simply asking for problems.
At least you said you worked the load up, but was that by firing a 5-shot group at each charge weight 9.1, 9.4, 9.7 and 10.0gn or some such) and, inspecting the cases and primers for any pressure signs (including case head expansion and expansion at the end of the case web compared to factory loads)?
Then, you are loading at what is, in many manuals, a MAX load of Unique, which is a lot slower and better behaved than TiteGroup, and you are simply adding to your possible problems.
You aren't using the same gun that Hodgdon used, you aren't using the same lot of powder that Hodgdon used, you aren't using the same bullet that Hodgdon used (JHP) and probably not the same COL.
Then, you loaded a plated bullet (which normally is only suitable for 1200 fps max velocity, and you could be getting something north of 1300 fps depending on your gun and barrel length), and you are again possibly adding to your problems. For plated bullets, the "rule" has been to use lead bullet data or ONLY LOAD UP TO JACKETED MID-RANGE DATA (which, for your Hodgdon data, would be 9.5gn, max).
Then, you are talking as though you could have had a 9x19 case in your .44 mag case AND NOT NOTICED IT. Are you implying that you do not inspect your cases before use or look in the charged case to verify the powder height is correct? Again, adding even more possible problems.
If you want to use TiteGroup for low velocity, target .44 Spl equivalent loads, go for it. But if you want anything near a max load, use a slower powder.
Sorry to sound snappy, but the whole post just screams of problems, unknowns, and not following safety precautions. I am sorry, but I just have had bad experiences with TiteGroup and can not imagine it in a .44 Mag case at anywhere close to max pressure--I have enough problems with light target loads in .38 Spl, much less hot magnum loads in .44 Mag.

[bazineta]

I'd lean toward Bill's argument here. There's a risk with hollow-base bullets (you describe the bullet as RNFP, though) that with hot enough a load, the front portion of the bullet exits while the skirt portion stays behind, and the load here was hot.

I suppose there could always have been a void in the bullet, but if it was plated, that means it would have had to fail the manufacturer's QA; not impossible, but moving into 'unlikely'.

[stilly]

Good evening all,

Had a problem with a .44 Mag Handload last week and wanted to see if anyone had any ideas.

Load is a 240 gr RNFP on top of 10 gr Tite Group and a Winchester large rifle primer and shot from my Rosi levergun.

Ammo loaded using my RCBS chargemaster so I am 100% sure it was right at 10.0 gr.

Being an idiot, I lost the brass and cannot share a picture.

Round went bang and felt normal. Didn't want to cycle and when levered more aggressively the bottom 3/4 of the brass came out. It looked like there was a second piece of brass nested in the first - "two layered" looking. That was my first prognosis - that a piece of 9mm nested in the .44 when I picked it up last time and managed to stay in there through the sorting and cleaning process. As I thought more about it, I do not think it would be possible to have a spent 9 nested in the 44 and they both decap so I could add a new primer.

This may remain a mystery since I lost the brass but please share any thoughts you have.

The end of the case is still in the Rossi barrel so a trip to the smith is in order for her.

Thanks

Brass breaks after a while.

I doubt it was 9mm inside a .44. You are more likely to have a .40, but was it really nested or was it just thicker on the bottom?

Gecko or IMI or AMMOLAND or FM tend to use that euro trash brass. It is part of the extrusion process when it is formed, but I never heard of it being used in 44 mag yet. Only 9mm and little things like that...

[Witch Hunter]

You can try to push the piece of brass out with a .50 bronze brush from the muzzle, that brass might pop right out. I would suggest a milder load. with plated bullets. If you want a full power load use a better match of bullet and powder. Try a jacketed bullet and 296. You will need a mag primer for 296.

[Win231]

Plated bullets are fine FOR MID-VELOCITY LOADS. At max, the plating can come off in the barrel & cause other hazardous problems. I've never had a problem with plated bullets in my Marlin 44 Mag, but I don't load them over 1,100 fps.

[Bill Steele]

I"ve watched this thread ever since the op posted it and I can only come to 1 conclusion... There is just too much ASSuming and wrong info going on here to even reasonably help diagnose the problem. Wrong primer, wrong powder, wrong bullet/projectile, unknown brass (once fired? Who said? Was it inspected?), no pics, etc. Are you even sure something is stuck in your barrel or is that just another ASSumption?

I"ll have to agree with Noylj, OP needs to sit down with a knowledgeable reloader (as in somebody that actually knows what they're doing. Preferably experienced for years not days) before something bad happens. I'm also surprised more aren't posting for the OP to back away from the reloading equipment and get some instruction... or something. OP got lucky with only a trip to the gunsmith... this time. What about the next time... or the next? Gamble much?

Just my $0.02

So I just read your assessment and frankly I couldn't find anything of value in any of it.

On the primers, he miss typed and confirmed he was using WLP. On the powder being the "wrong powder" what a joke. If Titegroup was inappropriate for the caliber and bullet, Hodgdon wouldn't publish a load for it, but you know what? Guys at Hodgdon who have forgotten more than you will likely ever learn on the subject think it is just fine. The OP confirmed he worked up the load and things were looking normal until the problem occurred.

There is supposition he might have been driving the bullets too hard, but nothing has confirmed that yet. On the plated subject, most people use lead loads for plated, some say use halfway between lead and jacketed for your charge, well, guess what mister reloading grand master, for the OP's load as per Hodgdon's load data for 240gr jacketed and lead max charge is the same, 10gr.

So in the final analysis, the only possible thing I have seen so far that he might have tripped up on is velocity for the plated bullets, but if he was shooting Xtreme for instance, he almost certainly would not have exceeded their 1500 fps recommended max. But we won't know that until we hear about who made the bullets. To assume he doesn't know what he is doing is well, ASSuming a lot.

But then maybe we won't hear from the OP again, with all the condescending "experts" spouting off on subjects clearly they are a little short on themselves, maybe he just went elsewhere.

What a freaking joke.

[Sky_DiveR]

You are absolutely right. My apologies to the OP. I posted without thinking after having a really bad day. I've already deleted my post and will go seat myself in the corner now.

[noylj]

> with all the condescending "experts"

You do realize that you are the one posting condescending comments. The rest of us are honestly trying to help and can't follow the changing story.
Personally, I have no idea exactly WHAT the OP really did, based on the story changing. Any one who can post that "mess" needs some personal help that we can't give over the internet.
So, if you believe the OP and you believe that Hodgdon data is correct for every lot of TG with every 240gn bullet in every case with every primer in every gun, then the OP could not have had a problem and it is all make-believe...