Where is the firearm hobby going?

[mshill]

I think it's kind of a youth culture nowadays. .... As the new generation comes up it has different tastes. The classic levergun or bolt rifle with the beautiful wood and expensive scope is kind of a rarity.

For the millennials Call of Duty is the introduction to firearms. They see rifles as AUGs, M16s, FALs, MP5s, etc.

[Merc1138]

For the millennials Call of Duty is the introduction to firearms. They see rifles as AUGs, M16s, FALs, MP5s, etc.

Which is funny when you consider that the discussion is about people not being interested in "classic" firearms, when aside from the AUG(which is still a pretty old design for '78), you listed "classic" firearms. The M16/AR-15? 1957. The FAL? 1954. The MP5? 1966. You only listed one firearm that wasn't 48+ years old. Just think about that for a moment, when an adult who recently turned 18 and has been playing CoD for the past few years has been seeing the guns you mentioned, there is a chance that 3 out of 4 of them might be older than their parents. Those ARE the classic firearms now.

The tavor, ACR, SCAR, various keltecs that are only made in batches of 10 per year, etc. are the "new" guns that people are exposed to. If an FN FAL is your idea of a modern firearm that isn't a classic, you're seriously a couple generations behind. If we were talking about music from those years, Nat King Cole and Dean Martin were at the top of the billboard charts. Cars, stores, toys, anything that came out the year that this song was a hit is OLD(not necessarily bad, but it's old):


It's not just a "millenial" thing.

edit: Actually I got the FN FAL thing wrong, it's service history started in 1954, it's design history goes back to 1947.

[dpr]

Unfortunately I think we're going to see the upper end gun market slowly dwindle. The Jack O'Conner era is dying off. The generation of fine wood and blued steel is slowly being overtaken by the utilitarian AR15, stainless steel composite generation. Fine Colt and S&W's are being replaced by XD40's and Ruger LCR's. And for every generation that replaces a pre 64 M70 or blued steel Sako with a Savage, the appreciation for fine guns is pretty much gone.

Gun show's now are a double ended sword. I've been to going to gun shows since I was a kid with dad. Almost 50 years worth. I bought my first gun at a show in 1982. Gun shows have slowly changed from a place that you could get a pretty good deal on a gun to a place where plenty of gun dealers would embarrass a used car dealer. Plenty of them show up, show after show with the same overpriced guns and then Sunday afternoon you hear them complain about how the show sucked because they didn't sell anything. Don't get me wrong there are some good dealers but here seem to be more and more gougers every year. I don't go to a gun show to pay 10% to 50% more than a gun is worth just because the dealer wants it and then to have him act like I f'ed his wife when I make a cash offer 15% under full retail. All this with the privilege of paying $10-$25 between parking and admission. At least this this has been my experience for about the last 5 years in Northern California and Nevada.

[Merc1138]

And for every generation that replaces a pre 64 M70 or blued steel Sako with a Savage, the appreciation for fine guns is pretty much gone.

So what do you call it if I replace a pre 64 M70 with a Sako TRG-22? Still a Sako, definitely not a "junk" gun, probably easily out shoots most pre 64 M70's if you're comparing them out of the box.

[boy&hisdogs]

Guns and ammo are getting more and more expensive
Laws are getting tighter and tighter
The average person is becoming more and more distant from nature and the outdoors (and thus more distant from outdoorsy things like guns)
Kids are being raised to think guns = violence = bad
Kids are also being raised not to solve their own problems and be independent, but to tell an adult or face zero-tolerance consequences. Then cry about it on the internet and make up a bunch of official sounding "disorders" and "conditions" to make yourself sound special and get lovey-dovey attention.
Being dependent on adults and teachers as a kid translates directly to being dependent on the state as an adult and fosters the "Only the police need guns, they will protect us" mentality
Everything is "college prep" now, kids don't learn hands on skills anymore, everything these days is all about working in a bureaucratic system and depending on everyone around you. This conditions them to be good, complacent citizens who shun anyone that doesn't go with the herd.

I could go on but I realize what a I'm sounding like here, so I think I'll call that good.

[dpr]

I'd call a Sako TRG something that needs to be in my safe. :-) But I'd refer to it as a nice high end tactical rifle. When I'm referring to fine guns I'm usually thinking blued steel/wood, there's probably an exception some where. My point was when a shooter only knows AR15's and Savage rifles with plastic stocks it's harder to appreciate something really fine like say a Purdy or a custom built classic rifle. And don't get me wrong, there's a place for everything, I own and use both. I hunted deer this year with a 50 Beowulf AR, but I've also hunted elk with a Holland and Holland double rifle. I grew up in a era when that exposed me to, and taught me to appreciate fine craftsmanship in guns. Todays generation, for the most part, seem to be indoctrinated with AR15's, plastic stocks, and camo finishes.

[Merc1138]

I'd call a Sako TRG something that needs to be in my safe. :-) But I'd refer to it as a nice high end tactical rifle. When I'm referring to fine guns I'm usually thinking blued steel/wood, there's probably an exception some where. My point was when a shooter only knows AR15's and Savage rifles with plastic stocks it's harder to appreciate something really fine like say a Purdy or a custom built classic rifle. And don't get me wrong, there's a place for everything, I own and use both. I hunted deer this year with a 50 Beowulf AR, but I've also hunted elk with a Holland and Holland double rifle. I grew up in a era when that exposed me to, and taught me to appreciate fine craftsmanship in guns. Todays generation, for the most part, seem to be indoctrinated with AR15's, plastic stocks, and camo finishes.

Ok, so we put a remington 700 based action in a nice mcmillan fiberglass "remington classic" stock, with one of their molded-in camo finishes. Won't change size or shape in varying weather conditions like wood. Won't soak up oil and fall apart like wood. Stronger, doesn't have a finish that will chip off if it gets dinged. What's wrong with 'em? They'll hold up in the elements better than any classic wood stocked rifle no matter how amazing the figure in the wood is. They're quality stocks. Want it done with a custom action? There are plenty to choose from, then get whatever barrel you want, 100% custom rifle, done.

Just because the wood for the stock wasn't found in the mountains of eastern europe, and the receiver wasn't engraved by the finest of craftsmen in Belgium, with the barrels finished using a bluing method that's been in place for 150 years, doesn't mean modern rifles can't be nice. If you want to go the blued steel and walnut stock route, there are still plenty of options to do that as well. Just remember my reply to mshill, those AR15's, FN FAL's, etc. aren't even "today's generation" because of how old they are.

edit: Also, it's not like everyone even 100 years ago was buying and shooting holland and holland guns that probably cost an arm and a leg then as well.

[dpr]

Not a damn thing wrong with stainless barrels and fiberglass stocks. And todays custom actions are a real pleasure. I never said they couldn't be nice. Like I said I own and hunt with both. When the rain, sleet and snow came the H&H goes back in it's case and the stainless synthetic stocked TC Encore comes out. This year I deer hunted with an AR15. I also hunt with some fine custom blued/wood rifles. They're all good. Holland and Holland or Savage, in the freezer is a done deal.

But getting back to OP, my point is how can a newer shooter, for the most part many of them only exposed to AR15's and camo dipped guns ever learn to appreciate a fine gun? Well they don't, the market changes, the pool of buyers gets smaller and if the op's guns weren't overpriced, they take longer to sell. And if they were over priced, they'll never sell. Hobby or not the gun market is changing because the mind set is changing. Some of it is good, some of it not so much.

[Merc1138]

Not a damn thing wrong with stainless barrels and fiberglass stocks. And todays custom actions are a real pleasure. I never said they couldn't be nice. Like I said I own and hunt with both. When the rain, sleet and snow came the H&H goes back in it's case and the stainless synthetic stocked TC Encore comes out. This year I deer hunted with an AR15. I also hunt with some fine custom blued/wood rifles. They're all good. Holland and Holland or Savage, in the freezer is a done deal.

But getting back to OP, my point is how can a newer shooter, for the most part many of them only exposed to AR15's and camo dipped guns ever learn to appreciate a fine gun? Well they don't, the market changes, the pool of buyers gets smaller and if the op's guns weren't overpriced, they take longer to sell. And if they were over priced, they'll never sell. Hobby or not the gun market is changing because the mind set is changing. Some of it is good, some of it not so much.

Ok, I get what you're saying. For a moment it seemed like you might be one of these guys who insists every gun made before 1940-something is some sort of masterpiece of craftsmanship.

[uaheclipse24]

I totally understand everyones point, it has enlightened me to things I never would have thought of, which is why I made this thread.

There is nothing wrong with todays guns, some are even better than the older ones and cost less. I have had good and bad experiences with new bolt action rifles that cost less than $600. Mostly bad, jamming, heating up and losing MOA, horrible trigger, inaccurate. However, I am not naive enough to think that it only happens with lower end rifles, it happens with higher end as well.

It did crack me up when I saw someone buy a savage axxis, then go buy a Leupold VX-3. the scope cost almost double the gun. Hey, to each their own.

I view my pre 64's and 71's as nostalgia pieces, maybe its because I can afford it and I realize most people cannot. It is kind of like a classic car. I drive my VW every day but also had a 454 corvette (sorry War Wagon, sold it to buy a house ...)

My everyday gun is my Kimber 308 longmaster, my first gun was a 70 pre 64 243 featherweight. I dont use it anymore, but like having it because Ill give it to my son and that will be his first gun. That way I can teach him about the old way, quality, workmanship, each one is different and each mark in the wood has a sotry. Cant really do that with todays mass produced, synthetic stocked guns that all look alike. Trust, me they do come in handy, I have 3 guns with synthetic stock, I use those when weather is going to be crappy.

My point is, gun shows are going down the tubes, I hate the fact that the only people really selling stuff is the ones that sell the gun that you can get in a big box store. If I wanted to go to a store to get a gun, I would. The people I see a lot, the older guys 50 and over that have the all wood guns, they are the ones that make up most of the show, but dont really sell anything, thats why gun shows are going down the tubes, its too expensive to set up and not sell anything.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and everyone has their own likings, I just think that not too many of my generation would buy a pre 64 model 70 for $800 if there was a new model 700 or tikka across the way for $5-600.

[toby]

With age comes wisdom.