Where is the firearm hobby going?

[uaheclipse24]

First I would like to say I am from out of state and am in Pennsylvania. I like this forum because I have never had one bad transaction and everyone has been nice so I felt like posting this here to get the other half of the nations opinion on this.

Over here in PA we pretty lax laws on firearms compared to a lot of other states and we have a lot more of the older guns here as well. We have a ton of little ma and pop stores all over the place and hunting is huge here, especially in western PA, our kids get off from school the first day of Buck.

Im 30 yrs old, my whole family has always collected guns and we have quit a few. Im talking about 4 42 gun safes full. We appreciate quality, and I was taught the value of older guns and their collectability.

I set up at guns shows every now and then to sell a few here and there if I need money for something else. I recently set up at a show and I had quality guns on my table at prices matching gun broker, scopes matching or even cheaper than ebay, and I did not sell 1 thing. Literally not one thing.

I had a franchi 2 barrel set, new CZ 20ga, weatherby lazermark, 2 citori 20ga, a new model Winchester 71, 2 pre 64 models 70's, a few Leupold and zeiss scopes as well.

I wasnt the only one who didnt sell anything either. a lot of the guys stated they wouldnt setup at a show again, its too costly. $50 for each table, travel, gas, time, ect. Basically, us vendors are losing money and paying for a gun show to not even make back the costs.

My point is, where is the hobby going? I sat across from a vendor who had 2 customers filling out forms all day each day. Literally, non stop they were selling these cheap rifles and handguns. Im talking about Savages, Hi points, cheap no name handguns and rifles. Is that really where our hobby is going?

I talked to one guy at the show, same age as me. He stated why would he buy a $900 model 70 when he can get a $400 savage or remington that does the same thing. I dawned on me that no one really cares about collecting or quality anymore. especially since everyones pocket books have gotten titer.

[WASR10]

I don't have the definitive answer, but I can say firearm ownership is not a hobby for many people, just as it isn't a hobby for me. Firearms ownership for me is about taking personal responsibility, exercising rights, and preparation. I wish I could afford to make this a hobby because I love to shoot and would love to collect. The guns I own are few, and they each have a specific function or purpose. So my guess is you are seeing many of the lower end firearms selling because more people are understanding the need to own a gun, but are not looking to make it a hobby.

[Merc1138]

Not everyone buys guns for the sake of collecting.

Is there some reason you think that cheap $400 savage rifle can't kill something? Maybe the person buying the hi-point can't afford a sig but simply wants something they can use to defend themselves if necessary?

There is one gun that I own for the sake of collecting, everything else has a specific purpose or was purchased because it's fun to shoot. I don't buy guns just for the sake of buying guns that happen to not be cheap. I think the "problem" is that people such as yourself do not see firearm ownership in the same way that a lot of other people do. The collector type still exist, but those people simply are not representative of the majority of gun owners.

[Capybara]

While many people who are into firearms have a lot of disposable income, many newbies do not. I think what you are seeing is no different than any other purchase decisions you are seeing in other arenas. Money, post Recession is tighter, young people who are new to the sport/hobby/lifestyle don't have an appreciation for quality and are not willing to pay for it. We live in the age of buying, "good enough." FWIW, with modern manufacturing practices, CNC milling, automated fabrication processes, many new "cheap" guns are surprisingly quality and amazingly accurate for the money. I'm a C&R guy and I appreciate real quality and old world craftsmanship but the average newbie today doesn't really know about or care about quality of the gun, if it works, can hit a target and doesn't break. The brands you named above all fit that bill. Hi Point may be cheap and not highly crafted but from what I have heard, they are very reliable and dirt cheap.

This is Obama's 2014 America. People are in debt and many are not working or not working in very good jobs. Guns, for most, are a luxury. It doesn't surprise me that more of them are buying inexpensive, basic guns.

[The Gleam]

"Hobby"

That's the problem right there. THAT is where it's going. THAT is how it's viewed.

I don't look at the right to keep and bear arms as a "hobby".

So, sorry; can't relate.

[uaheclipse24]

While many people who are into firearms have a lot of disposable income, many newbies do not. I think what you are seeing is no different than any other purchase decisions you are seeing in other arenas. Money, post Recession is tighter, young people who are new to the sport/hobby/lifestyle don't have an appreciation for quality and are not willing to pay for it. We live in the age of buying, "good enough." FWIW, with modern manufacturing practices, CNC milling, automated fabrication processes, many new "cheap" guns are surprisingly quality and amazingly accurate for the money. I'm a C&R guy and I appreciate real quality and old world craftsmanship but the average newbie today doesn't really know about or care about quality of the gun, if it works, can hit a target and doesn't break. The brands you named above all fit that bill. Hi Point may be cheap and not highly crafted but from what I have heard, they are very reliable and dirt cheap.

This is Obama's 2014 America. People are in debt and many are not working or not working in very good jobs. Guns, for most, are a luxury. It doesn't surprise me that more of them are buying inexpensive, basic guns.

Thank you very much and this is well written. It had crossed my mind about this, but didnt really think it would effect things too much. this has only happened in the past 2 years that we have seen this.

Many people only need a certain gun for a purpose, me I have several purposes, range, target, hunting, protection, tactical, ect. I view it as a hobby, because I dont buy stock. I buy guns and ammo instead. Ive lost WAY too much in that market and at the end of the day if by chance this world goes to crap, guns and ammo will be the only real currency.

[Jimi Jah]

Some drive a pinto, some drive a Rolls Royce, so what is the question?

[Oceanbob]

Some drive a pinto, some drive a Rolls Royce, so what is the question?

This^^^^^

[glockman19]

"Hobby"

That's the problem right there. THAT is where it's going. THAT is how it's viewed.

I don't look at the right to keep and bear arms as a "hobby".

So, sorry; can't relate.

^^^THIS^^^

I don't consider my firearms collection a "Hobby"

[IVC]

Different market segments. The guy across from you was a perfect example - the difference in market segment is so big that it's as if you were selling completely different products.

Another problem is that high(er) end guns which are still manufactured are hard to sell. Those with money will look to get a new one and those without money will consider a much cheaper alternative that is as good as the high end one. Typical example is your Lazermark - I have one and love it, but I wouldn't buy it used even if it were well below market.

[SonofWWIIDI]

Already said, but...

Not a hobby.

Building toy models is a hobby. Gardening is a hobby. Collecting souvenir spoons (or other non gun related items) is a hobby. RC planes/cars is a hobby. Etc.

Voting is not a hobby. (Unless you're a deceased democrat, or an illegal alien.

Guns are not a hobby, they are rights endowed to us by our creator, enumerated by the Constitution, and something that must be protected!

[Divernhunter]

Sorry but I do not care for your elite attitude. You sound like one the snobs from our trap range.
Savage not quality? Win is? I have seen too many non-quality Savage rifles outshoot the "quality" Win. There are many reasons someone would buy a savage over the overpriced and hyped win 70. Cost is but one. Accuracy out of the box is another. I, for one, hate the safety on the win and will never own one again. I have bought and enjoy a Savage rifle. The old stereotype about Savage rifles is still held by some who cannot let go of the past and see their progress. You one of these?
I have 3 large safes stuffed with firearms. Some are cheap by your standards but just what I want for the job I bought them for. There are a number that have been customized or rebarreled usually due the barrel being shot out and one to change cartridge chambering.
One is a custom rifle I had made for myself.
Most all my firearms are shot/used. You almost sound like you do very little shooting and just sit back to admire your firearms. Newsflash: Firearms are made to be used with a very few exceptions. They are a tool just like a hammer is to most people. Yes they can be a tool crafted as the owner sees fit, but they are still a tool designed to be used.
That said I have several expensive firearms which I do not shoot so as not to diminish the "collector" value they have. I also have a number of firearms that mean much to me but little to others. I would not sell them even for 2-3 times their actual value.
I collect C&R firearms as well and have a number of higher dollar ones as well as more plain Jane ones.

I see both sides of the coin concerning value(in the eyes of the owner/buyer/seller/collector) and collector firearms. Most of the time they are 2 different kinds of people. I also see far too many people who hold on to former standards of certain brands(good or bad) and not what the brands are now. We have a vastly greater selection of quality built firearms from a greater number of manufactures today that years ago.
I just bought a "cheap" 30-06 Ruger Ameriican because they shoot well/it fits me and I like the safety. It is to be a back up hunting rifle as I sold another ultra-lite high dollar semi-custom($1000) rifle and feel naked without a 30-06 bolt hunting rifle even if I never use it. It will have a good Leupold scope on it just as all my hunting/serious firearms(rifle/pistol) have except for a couple of High dollar Nightforce NXS scope on my 50BMG rifles----Which are also not cheap.
I must agree some firearms are cheap by anyone's standards such as the Rem 710/770 and others. Other firearms are good quality and will last many lifetimes but are not expensive to buy. This makes it easier for people to get into the "hobby" of gun ownership They can be happy and afford this hobby of shooting/hunting. Who knows they may even become a "collector of Quality collector firearms". They may even shoot or not those firearms. They may also just sit and admire them for the status of owning them.

Come off your snob pedestal long enough to see the real world in prospective and what most people want/see in firearms before putting them down. The "quality(in your eyes), top dollar(even if they do not really deserve it), collectors" market is but a very small percent of the total firearms market.
It has a place in the whole scheme of things but is not the only market.

Call it a hobby if you want but it is part of my life. I agree that collecting and not using/shooting is a "hobby". In my eyes a bit of a waste but that is just my opinion and you are entitled to your. I respect you right to your own opinion just as long as you do not insult others for theirs. Which you have done.

My 2 Cents

[Mitch]

I set up at guns shows every now and then to sell a few here and there if I need money for something else. I recently set up at a show and I had quality guns on my table at prices matching gun broker, scopes matching or even cheaper than ebay, and I did not sell 1 thing. Literally not one thing.

I had a franchi 2 barrel set, new CZ 20ga, weatherby lazermark, 2 citori 20ga, a new model Winchester 71, 2 pre 64 models 70's, a few Leupold and zeiss scopes as well.

I wasnt the only one who didnt sell anything either. a lot of the guys stated they wouldnt setup at a show again, its too costly. $50 for each table, travel, gas, time, ect. Basically, us vendors are losing money and paying for a gun show to not even make back the costs.

Your guns were priced too high as were those of the other vendors you cited. I'm not sure you have noticed (and a lot of folks in the Calguns Marketplace have not), but there is a tremendous glut of used guns on the market now and it is absolutely a buyer's market. Do not expect to get last year's prices for guns today. Do not expect to get what you paid for your guns if you bought them in the last five years.

And for the record, firearms for me are absolutely a hobby (as well as a job). I wouldn't possess over 100 of them if it wasn't a hobby. No one needs 100 firearms, or even ten firearms, unless it's to maintain a hobby.

[uaheclipse24]

Sorry but I do not care for your elite attitude. You sound like one the snobs from our trap range.
Savage not quality? Win is? I have seen too many non-quality Savage rifles outshoot the "quality" Win. There are many reasons someone would buy a savage over the overpriced and hyped win 70. Cost is but one. Accuracy out of the box is another. I, for one, hate the safety on the win and will never own one again. I have bought and enjoy a Savage rifle. The old stereotype about Savage rifles is still held by some who cannot let go of the past and see their progress. You one of these?
I have 3 large safes stuffed with firearms. Some are cheap by your standards but just what I want for the job I bought them for. There are a number that have been customized or rebarreled usually due the barrel being shot out and one to change cartridge chambering.
One is a custom rifle I had made for myself.
Most all my firearms are shot/used. You almost sound like you do very little shooting and just sit back to admire your firearms. Newsflash: Firearms are made to be used with a very few exceptions. They are a tool just like a hammer is to most people. Yes they can be a tool crafted as the owner sees fit, but they are still a tool designed to be used.
That said I have several expensive firearms which I do not shoot so as not to diminish the "collector" value they have. I also have a number of firearms that mean much to me but little to others. I would not sell them even for 2-3 times their actual value.
I collect C&R firearms as well and have a number of higher dollar ones as well as more plain Jane ones.

I see both sides of the coin concerning value(in the eyes of the owner/buyer/seller/collector) and collector firearms. Most of the time they are 2 different kinds of people. I also see far too many people who hold on to former standards of certain brands(good or bad) and not what the brands are now. We have a vastly greater selection of quality built firearms from a greater number of manufactures today that years ago.
I just bought a "cheap" 30-06 Ruger Ameriican because they shoot well/it fits me and I like the safety. It is to be a back up hunting rifle as I sold another ultra-lite high dollar semi-custom($1000) rifle and feel naked without a 30-06 bolt hunting rifle even if I never use it. It will have a good Leupold scope on it just as all my hunting/serious firearms(rifle/pistol) have except for a couple of High dollar Nightforce NXS scope on my 50BMG rifles----Which are also not cheap.
I must agree some firearms are cheap by anyone's standards such as the Rem 710/770 and others. Other firearms are good quality and will last many lifetimes but are not expensive to buy. This makes it easier for people to get into the "hobby" of gun ownership They can be happy and afford this hobby of shooting/hunting. Who knows they may even become a "collector of Quality collector firearms". They may even shoot or not those firearms. They may also just sit and admire them for the status of owning them.

Come off your snob pedestal long enough to see the real world in prospective and what most people want/see in firearms before putting them down. The "quality(in your eyes), top dollar(even if they do not really deserve it), collectors" market is but a very small percent of the total firearms market.
It has a place in the whole scheme of things but is not the only market.

Call it a hobby if you want but it is part of my life. I agree that collecting and not using/shooting is a "hobby". In my eyes a bit of a waste but that is just my opinion and you are entitled to your. I respect you right to your own opinion just as long as you do not insult others for theirs. Which you have done.

My 2 Cents

No offense was meant in anything I said. I said a fact, savages, hi points, low model remingtons and even low model winchesters are "cheap" guns. Doesnt mean they dont work the same as a $1k prices rifle. To each their own. Ive owned those "cheap" rifles before and I have only had bad experiences. One costing me the buck of my lifetime. It was a winchester 70, newer model, didnt fire, then jammed when racking a new round. I like old winchesters, not new ones, my old 70 featherweight 243, never had a problem with it and it was made in the 50's.

I'm not a Snob, because I like quality doesnt mean I am. My favorite rifles are my Kimber's. Ill gladly pay the extra couple hundred for quality. To each their own, I am lucky enough to have a good job that allows me to do so, others are not as fortunate. I havent tried to offend anyone an you are the first person in years of being on this forum to say something negative to me.

If you have more than 5 guns of any type, look at guns and ammo online. You are starting or already in a "hobby" Hunting is a hobby, playing a sport is a hobby, collecting or working on cars is a hobby. Anything you take interest in is basically a hobby and liking of yours.

My question was that in recent past years, "collector guns" IE, winchester pre 64 70, Winchester 71, ect, they were very much sought after and the "cheaper" guns were not. Now all of the sudden, its reversed. I was simply trying to see if it was the same in CA and what the culture was out there.

The gun culture in the Northern mid/east is different then out there. Our shows in PA and OH are run by associations called OH and PA gun Collectors. So ya, there is a difference in views throughout the country.

[d4v0s]

I have a model 70, and a savage 110...

The savage out shoots the model 70, and was half as much. The quality on the savage is great, my model 70 has a great stock and better bluing, but that doesn't make it shoot any better.

Cheap handguns these days are fun, I have seven no name POS pistols (XDs) that I hand out at the range or when camping so everyone gets one.

Collecting guns is the dumbest hobby I have ever heard of, my brother is into it and I simply do not understand the reason behind it. He has so many calibers that shooting becomes a chore, and he doesn't know any of his guns intimately enough to shoot them well. Sure he owns 50. But I know mine like the back of my hand.

He also views them as "investments"... Unless you bought it cheap and sell it high, there is no profit to be made. Turning $1000 into a gun and back into $1000 isn't an investment, savings account maybe. Ha ha ha without the interest.



And for my final trick, people aren't doing to well these days, people cannot simply afford the old ways, especially when they are paying 25% on the **** they bought last panic.... Oh and I wouldn't shop at a gun show and expect to pay gun broker prices, people want a deal.