Any class 3's that transfer AOW's

[freakshow10mm]

Milwaukee: I lived on 84th and Good Hope. Went to SPI school on 76th and Acacia.

AOWs: Maverick (Mossy 500) based 20ga mainly, a few 12ga. Hard to do SxS or O/U AOWs as one needs a virgin receiver. I've spoken with all the SxS and O/U shotgun makers and no one is willing to sell a virgin receiver as a barreled action. SBS and SBR are illegal in MI even for SOTs, unless it's a C&R gun on a C&R license. Even LE and the ATF themselves cannot possess SBR or SBS in MI. My ATF agent had to trade her DPMS Kitty Kat SBR in for a full auto lower so it's a MG and not a SBR. Funny stuff. That's what I like about WI. NFA freedom.

DDs: I'm an 07/02 so I can only deal in DDs but not make them. The Type 10 FFL for that is $3000 for three years. Too rich for my blood.

Might need some Uzi mags in the future. Got any Sten mags?

[prebans]

I would love to be able to get an SxS or O/U AOW. The problem seems to be finding suitable host guns. M24armorer went to SHOT this year and talked to every importer/manufacturer he could about getting PGO SxS or O/U shotguns or stripped frames. Nobody could/would help him even though he would have bought a significant quantity. I would guess it has to do with "sporting purposes" import regulations.

Yup. ATF won't approve importation for shotgun receivers without buttstocks to be imported to avoid this very scenario. Putting a pistol grip on them with barrel makes it an imported NFA item; as per GCA '68, these are restricted from sale to civilians. Without a barrel, now they need to meet the whole handgun import point minimum-- and they never do.

The last ones that got through were from Italy. Denny's Guns made them into clones of the Ithaca Auto & Burglar. They sold out very quickly.

I was asking more to see if Freakshow was going to machine some up from scratch. It's a project I've considered multiple times but have always abandoned due to the sheer amount of work involved-- that and I don't have the proper machine tools for such an operation.

Mike

[prebans]

Milwaukee: I lived on 84th and Good Hope. Went to SPI school on 76th and Acacia.

AOWs: Maverick (Mossy 500) based 20ga mainly, a few 12ga. Hard to do SxS or O/U AOWs as one needs a virgin receiver. I've spoken with all the SxS and O/U shotgun makers and no one is willing to sell a virgin receiver as a barreled action. SBS and SBR are illegal in MI even for SOTs, unless it's a C&R gun on a C&R license. Even LE and the ATF themselves cannot possess SBR or SBS in MI. My ATF agent had to trade her DPMS Kitty Kat SBR in for a full auto lower so it's a MG and not a SBR. Funny stuff. That's what I like about WI. NFA freedom.

DDs: I'm an 07/02 so I can only deal in DDs but not make them. The Type 10 FFL for that is $3000 for three years. Too rich for my blood.

Might need some Uzi mags in the future. Got any Sten mags?

Got an Uncle up on Good Hope! I have to head to northern and northwestern Milwaukee a lot on business.

We've both run into the same problem with SxS and O/U receivers, then. I've found a small handful of SxS and one O/U AOW in however many years. Still kick myself for not picking up that O/U, even at the $2,500.00 price tag. I find that it's less people being unwilling and more importation issues. It's a sad fact that less and less is made here in the USA. SxS and O/U shotguns are among those items that just aren't made here in the USA any more.

The Midwest is weird when it comes to NFA. MN has your same problem with short barrel items but it's for silencers. (I think they're C&R only for short items as well, but LE/gov't is exempt.) IN bans SBSes but you're fine with an AOW or with a chopped DD. IL... We'll not talk about IL. In MO, you're only good for C&R NFA unless you've got a C&R-- then you're good for anything. In IA, you're only good for DEWAT MGs, non-shotgun based AOWs, and C&R everything else. In OH, a semi-auto that holds more than 30 rounds is a MG by state law. Here in WI, we've got a weird unenforced law on the books mandating a state permit (which doesn't exist) for pistol-caliber MGs, but rifle caliber MGs are left alone. Basically, aside from WI and OH (which still aren't perfect), the Midwest is chock full of oddball regs.

Unfortunately, while we are all but 100% clean for NFA, we don't have CCW. Coming from living in Arizona for 5 years, that %$#@! blows. There's nothing like hauling $40 grand worth of NFA from a gun show and the state expecting you to be totally disarmed.

I've got enough call for DDs that it'll be worth it when it's time to pay the $3,000.00-- so long as Obama doesn't get in and ball everything up. I'll miss the $90.00 renewal bill versus the $3,000.00 renewal bill, but I'm confident that I can make it back on DD business based upon the folks I deal with. DD transfers definitely won't be $40 affairs, though. Just handling a Lahti 20mm is enough of a storage hassle, but at least I don't have to rent a spare garage like I would to hold a big gun during transfer. (The logistics of transporting, much less storage, can get interesting.)

No Sten mags, at least none in stock right now. Just 150 Uzi 32 rounders. I'll let you know if I run into any at a cheap price, though!

Mike

[freakshow10mm]

I was asking more to see if Freakshow was going to machine some up from scratch. It's a project I've considered multiple times but have always abandoned due to the sheer amount of work involved-- that and I don't have the proper machine tools for such an operation.

Mike

I'd love to but I don't have CNC. I know a few 07/02s that have CNC shops. Griffin Armament in WI is one of them.

[prebans]

I'd love to but I don't have CNC. I know a few 07/02s that have CNC shops. Griffin Armament in WI is one of them.

Some time, likely during the dead of winter, I'm going to sit down with a block of steel and a file.

Even if I only get it partially toward done, perhaps it'll eventually become a SxS AOW.

Mike

[freakshow10mm]

We've both run into the same problem with SxS and O/U receivers, then.

Yup. If someone has the manufacturing capabilities for making receivers and can find a barrel manufacturer to make barrels, it's a goldmine.

Here in WI, we've got a weird unenforced law on the books mandating a state permit (which doesn't exist) for pistol-caliber MGs, but rifle caliber MGs are left alone.

Yep, weird isn't it. You need a permit that doesn't exist. Only in the Cheesehead state.

Unfortunately, while we are all but 100% clean for NFA, we don't have CCW. Coming from living in Arizona for 5 years, that %$#@! blows.

I moved up here to get away from Doyle and his veto pen. I just about cried when we failed by one vote to override his veto. I can't remember the asshat's name but if I ever see the dude that *****ed out on us gun owners I will weiner punch him. Twice.

[prebans]

Yup. If someone has the manufacturing capabilities for making receivers and can find a barrel manufacturer to make barrels, it's a goldmine.

.....

Yep, weird isn't it. You need a permit that doesn't exist. Only in the Cheesehead state.

.....

I moved up here to get away from Doyle and his veto pen. I just about cried when we failed by one vote to override his veto. I can't remember the asshat's name but if I ever see the dude that *****ed out on us gun owners I will weiner punch him. Twice.

Why reinvent the wheel? Make a close copy of an existing common SxS or O/U receiver where it's either not patented or the patent has run out. Pick a make/model that is relatively inexpensive and builders will have plenty of cheap host guns for parts and chopping. The Stevens 311 comes to mind. This would be a relatively easy (legally) project until you want to mass-market the bare receivers; then you've got to have your patent ducks in a row or you'll be at the business end of a double-barreled lawsuit.

Hey, at least we can have SBRs and SBSes!

Yeah, I couldn't believe it when that happened. That SOB (both of 'em) got re-elected too. We essentially have CCW; the law is enforced/ignored as much as that pistol-cal MG permit. What a crock of %$#@!

Mike

[OCArmory]

Yeah i saw your group buy on Arizonashooting. i just got my 01 in California so I'll be moving permanently. I would really like a shorty. I am trying to figure a way to do it with as little hassle as possible. Kinda would rather not have it on my bound book as well.

[prebans]

Yeah i saw your group buy on Arizonashooting. i just got my 01 in California so I'll be moving permanently. I would really like a shorty. I am trying to figure a way to do it with as little hassle as possible. Kinda would rather not have it on my bound book as well.

Honestly, it doesn't make too big of a deal-- it'll be on your books (whether in your business' books, in your personal books, or on a corp/trust that's related to you books).

Are you in AZ right now? If yes, how long will you be there? By far, the easiest option would be to get it to you before you leave AZ. If you get it in your name, you should be able to enter CA and be just fine.

If you're already in CA, is your FFL under your own name or under a corporation? If it's in your name, we can transfer it direct to you (non-SOT FFLs may receive NFA direct tax-paid) but you will need a CLEO sign off. If it's in a corporation's name, we can transfer it direct (tax-paid) but no sign off.

If you don't want it in your FFL at all, we'll have to transfer it through a CA SOT. I'm encountering lots of unexpected resistance; have spoke with four since yesterday and none are willing to transfer even if the item's totally lawful.

Mike

[OCArmory]

My FFL is in a corporation name. I am just an 01 FFL. I thought about paying for the SOT and doing AOW's and stuff but I don't know if the hassle is worth it. Yeah I'm in California for good now. Thanks for the help i really appreciate it.
Mike

[prebans]

My FFL is in a corporation name. I am just an 01 FFL. I thought about paying for the SOT and doing AOW's and stuff but I don't know if the hassle is worth it. Yeah I'm in California for good now. Thanks for the help i really appreciate it.
Mike

Okay- also got your PM. In this case, we could do a standard Form 4 transfer (tax of $5.00) from me direct to your FFL. No signoffs, no nothing because it's in a LLC's name.

ATF will approve if it's legal. However, I do want to call my examiner to double verify that all is well beforehand if we decide to do this. No sense trading cash around and ordering things if the Feds are going to cause trouble.

I wonder if this has to be called in through that California registration thingy. Or do they not count NFA shipments..?

Also, can anybody confirm that this handgun (it's a smooth bore handgun) is okay for importation into CA? I don't think that it's gone through the required drop tests...

Anyhow, here's how the legal end of the process will work:

1. I prepare two identical Form 4s to get the Serbu from me to your FFL LLC. The forms get mailed to you. You look them over for errors, sign where indicated, and mail themn to ATF with a check for five bucks AND a copy of whatever formation papers CA gives to you for your LLC.

2. ATF approves the transfer and mail one of the forms back to me.

3. (Not sure of this part; it may or may not apply.) I call CA DOJ for approval to send you the item. They approve.

4. I send you the Serbu.

At this point, it can sit on your books just fine. Or, you can transfer it out to another corp/llc/trust or transfer it to yourself. Assuming you decide to transfer it out...

A. You execute a Form 4 transfering the Serbu from your FFL LLC to wherever. If to you personally, you get a sign off from your City or County Sheriff and get photographed and fingerprinted. If to a corp/llc/trust, you just fill out the Form 4s. The Form 4s get sent in with a check for five bucks and (if applicable) your corp/trust formation papers.

B. ATF approves and mails a copy of the form back to you.

C. The gun is transferred out. A 4473 will need to be done as well. If the Serbu goes to a corp or a trust, make sure to follow the "instructions to transferor" relating to corp/trust entities found on the reverse side of the 4473.

D. There may or may not be more CA-specific stuff. I can't speak to this, as I'm unfamiliar with CA law relating to the transfer of smooth bore handgun AOWs.

HTH,

Mike

[m24armorer]

I'll try to sort this out for you folks tomorrow.