How about starting 81% build parties?

[BMartin1776]

Ok a lot of back and forth here so let me ask if I buy and 80% from "A" where I DO some type of work to the 80% making it 81-85% homebuilt firearm by me and then I hand it off to gunsmith "B" could "B" if they have access to a CNC, mill whatever finish it to 100%?

[SJ-Chris]

Ok a lot of back and forth here so let me ask if I buy and 80% from "A" where I DO some type of work to the 80% making it 81-85% homebuilt firearm by me and then I hand it off to gunsmith "B" could "B" if they have access to a CNC, mill whatever finish it to 100%?

Also add to your question: "... and the gunsmith has a Type 1 FFL license."

While an argument could be made that you should be able to bring your firearm back to Company A to perform the last "19%", I can see that that is where trouble could happen. Has a much worse perception. "Sounds" a lot worse in my opinion.

If we know that 80%ers are perfectly legal for us to buy, and we know exactly what steps a licensed gunsmith is allowed to make on a FIREARM (and whether or not that firearm needs to have a serial number, etc), then all we need to do is bridge that gap. Is it drilling ONE hole? 3 different holes? Does it need a serial number? That is what we would need to figure out.

Any Type 1 licensed gunsmiths out there who can give us some insight? We could be way off base, or this could be a new approach...still not sure.

[marlin357]

Why does it seem so many people buy/want to buy an 80% lower and not do the work themselves? Buy a jig for $90. Buy a drill press at Harbor Freight or on Craigslist, or borrow a friend or family members. Follow the instructions or YouTube it. Engrave and anodize or cerakote it if you want. Not all that difficult.

My paperweight has been sitting on my desk while I wait for my jig, and I can't wait to drill it out, myself.

I'm not insulting/attacking anyone here, I just want to know why it seems this is the trend.

[Quiet]

Why does it seem so many people buy/want to buy an 80% lower and not do the work themselves? Buy a jig for $90. Buy a drill press at Harbor Freight or on Craigslist, or borrow a friend or family members. Follow the instructions or YouTube it. Engrave and anodize or cerakote it if you want. Not all that difficult.

My paperweight has been sitting on my desk while I wait for my jig, and I can't wait to drill it out, myself.

I'm not insulting/attacking anyone here, I just want to know why it seems this is the trend.

Because they lack the technical know how (skill) to complete it and lack the motivation to learn to do so.

It's common phenomena amongst the instant gratification generation.

[nobody_special]

Why does it seem so many people buy/want to buy an 80% lower and not do the work themselves? Buy a jig for $90. Buy a drill press at Harbor Freight or on Craigslist, or borrow a friend or family members. Follow the instructions or YouTube it. Engrave and anodize or cerakote it if you want. Not all that difficult.

Not everyone has the skills, knowledge, time or space. Consider someone living in a studio apartment, for example.

[SJ-Chris]

Why does it seem so many people buy/want to buy an 80% lower and not do the work themselves? Buy a jig for $90. Buy a drill press at Harbor Freight or on Craigslist, or borrow a friend or family members. Follow the instructions or YouTube it. Engrave and anodize or cerakote it if you want. Not all that difficult.

My paperweight has been sitting on my desk while I wait for my jig, and I can't wait to drill it out, myself.

I'm not insulting/attacking anyone here, I just want to know why it seems this is the trend.

I appreciate your question (and especially your last sentence!). Let me reply in a similar fashion.

People have different skills, space, funds, interest, time.

Skills: Some are more skilled than others. Should there be a skill threshold to define WHO can build their own gun? Perhaps. But why do most start with an 80% paperweight? Why not 50%? Why not a solid block of aluminum/poly? Because it is easier of course and you can legally do so. Why do you use a drill press rather than a hand held drill? Why do you buy a jig and not free-hand it? Obviously, because it is easier with a jig and drill press and you will end up with a nicer firearm when you are done. Would an old-timer (no offense) look at you using a jig and drill press on an 80%er and say the same thing about how you are going about it (taking the "easy" route)? Not attacking AT ALL...just making a point.

Space: Maybe some people have a garage to work in with lots of space. Maybe others would have to do the work on their kitchen table. Should space be a defining issue for who is allowed to do a home build?

Funds: One could argue that using a CNC approach is cheaper. No need for a jig. No need for a drill press, etc. Maybe someone can not afford a jig and drill press. Should funds be a limiting issue for whether or not someone can exercise this 2A right? I suppose if you had NO money then yes, but for the most part how much one spends finishing their lower shouldn't be a factor one way or the other.

Interest/Time: Some might want a home build, but don't want to spend too much time on it. That doesn't make it wrong. You might choose to start with an 80%er instead of a block of aluminum...saves you time. How long it takes to complete your home build shouldn't be a criteria as to who can do it and who cannot in my opinion. When you wash your car, do you do it yourself? Do you spend a lot of time washing, polishing, vacuuming, etc? If you did, you'd probably feel pretty good about your car and how it looks. Others would just bring it to the car wash and accomplish a similar result. Two different ways to end up with a similar result (clean car). Yes, one you will feel more pride with, but the other got the job done much the same.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for one to find the easiest, fastest, cheapest way WITHIN THE LAW to build their own firearm. That being said, I am MUCH MUCH more impressed with someone that actually does start from scratch or does much/most of it by hand. They will take a lot more pride in what they have built (deservedly so) than someone that takes an easier route. But that again is simply a different measure and not really a component of what is legal and what is not.

I'd like to get an 80% jigless poly lower and try to finish it off by hand as I think it would be fun (and more rewarding than a CNC approach). It also can be completed with the tools I already have. But I'd also like some aluminum home built lowers (more durable) and for those I might prefer (for now) an easier, but still legal, way of completing them.

My real motivation for this thread, and my appreciation for home built firearms.....I don't like the current 2A landscape right now and I want to encourage continued firearm propagation among law abiding citizens. In a small way, it seems like a component of the 2nd amendment that we can actually take into our own hands (...while many of our 2A rights are being stripped away).

[BMartin1776]

Also add to your question: "... and the gunsmith has a Type 1 FFL license."

While an argument could be made that you should be able to bring your firearm back to Company A to perform the last "19%", I can see that that is where trouble could happen. Has a much worse perception. "Sounds" a lot worse in my opinion.

If we know that 80%ers are perfectly legal for us to buy, and we know exactly what steps a licensed gunsmith is allowed to make on a FIREARM (and whether or not that firearm needs to have a serial number, etc), then all we need to do is bridge that gap. Is it drilling ONE hole? 3 different holes? Does it need a serial number? That is what we would need to figure out.

Any Type 1 licensed gunsmiths out there who can give us some insight? We could be way off base, or this could be a new approach...still not sure.

Im not talking about going back to "A" why would you suggest it and throw off my question?

[BMartin1776]

Why does it seem so many people buy/want to buy an 80% lower and not do the work themselves? Buy a jig for $90. Buy a drill press at Harbor Freight or on Craigslist, or borrow a friend or family members. Follow the instructions or YouTube it. Engrave and anodize or cerakote it if you want. Not all that difficult.

My paperweight has been sitting on my desk while I wait for my jig, and I can't wait to drill it out, myself.

I'm not insulting/attacking anyone here, I just want to know why it seems this is the trend.

because not everyone has the money nor the space for the tools. They are capable of doing the work just not able to get the tools to do the work, thus the idea behind build parties etc. Im mechanically inclined I build stuff all the time but Im not about to go spend a ton of money to tool up to machine one AR10(which is done thankfully) and one 1911(that Im now stuck with)

[SJ-Chris]

Im not talking about going back to "A" why would you suggest it and throw off my question?

Not my intention...sorry.

We are both asking basically the same question:

If I buy and 80% lower receiver paperweight from "A" then I DO some type of work to the 80% paperweight creating a home-built firearm by me (maybe now it is at what we might call 81% and recognized by the BATFE as a firearm) and then I hand it off to a Type1 FFL licensed gunsmith "B" could "B" use whatever means they like (eg. CNC machine) to finish it to 100%?

One scenario could be if the firearm we are handing to the gunsmith has no serial numbers or other markings, and another scenario could be that it has a serial number and perhaps city/caliber/etc (whatever is needed to make it legal for them to work on) of our choosing.

[sigstroker]

Why does it seem so many people buy/want to buy an 80% lower and not do the work themselves? Buy a jig for $90. Buy a drill press at Harbor Freight or on Craigslist, or borrow a friend or family members. Follow the instructions or YouTube it. Engrave and anodize or cerakote it if you want. Not all that difficult.

My paperweight has been sitting on my desk while I wait for my jig, and I can't wait to drill it out, myself.

I'm not insulting/attacking anyone here, I just want to know why it seems this is the trend.

Partly because it takes a lot more than a drill press and a jig. I would also have to buy drill bits, possibly a reamer, at least 1 end mill, calipers, X-Y vise, metal square, precision level, shop vac, and that's just what I can think of.

edit: Also, serial no, etc is not a requirement afaik. The gunsmith does not have to enter it in his bound book if you stay while he does the work.

[bohoki]

ive done it on a drill press with a jig and the cheapo index of bits from harbor freight and a chinese endmill that cost like $6 delivered

you dont need a cross slide vice you can do it freehand on the drill press table it helps if you make a couple safety blocks that you can adjust so you wont go too far

the jig gives you some mass and something to hold on to

a drill press is cool cause they are belt drive so you have that element of safety in case of a mill jam

once you get a good pocket top goin you can use the mills shank to keep it from going too far

[SJ-Chris]

Bringing it back on topic... we are still trying to answer this question:

If I buy and 80% lower receiver paperweight from "A" then I DO some type of work to the 80% paperweight (with my own tools at my own home) creating a home-built firearm by me (maybe now it is at what we might call 81% and recognized by the BATFE as a firearm) and then I hand it off to a Type1 FFL licensed gunsmith "B" could "B" use whatever means they like (eg. CNC machine) to finish it to 100%?

This line of questioning can be asked a different way...If I buy an 80% lower and I do the following activities myself at my home with my tools:
- mill out the fire control group area
- drill out the trigger pin
- drill out the hammer pin
- drill out the trigger slot

The only thing left to do is drill out the safety selector hole. Would we (and the BATFE) all agree that this is now considered a firearm by everyone's definition? Can I then bring my almost complete firearm to a Type 1 licensed gunsmith and have them do the final step of drilling out safety selector hole (using whatever tool he chooses...could be a drill, could be a CNC)? If your answer is yes, then what if I want the gunsmith to do the safety selector hole AND the trigger slot? Would that be legal? You see where I'm going with this right? I'd like to find out which steps would be allowed (could be 4 out of 5 steps are okay...could be that none of them are okay...I still haven't heard/seen what looks like an official answer...).

Also: Does a gunsmith require a firearm to have a serial number and manufacturer's markings (even on a home-build lower) in order to do work on it?

[bohoki]

its hard to speculate without an opinion letter so hang in there it has been asked unfortunatly the technical branch fears releasing the obvious and correct opinion on paper

[ke6guj]

its hard to speculate without an opinion letter so hang in there it has been asked unfortunatly the technical branch fears releasing the obvious and correct opinion on paper

exactly. it should be legal to take that "81%" receiver that ATF has already stated IS a firearm since it had work done in the FCG pocket or had the trigger pin holes drilled or dimpled and then have any other person do additional gunsmithing for you (if left overnight then would need to be an FFL) just like as if you had left them your 1911 frame or R700 receiver and had them do modifications to it for you.

however, it is all speculation unless you can get confirmation one way or another from ATF.

[sdsguy87]

Why does it seem so many people buy/want to buy an 80% lower and not do the work themselves? Buy a jig for $90. Buy a drill press at Harbor Freight or on Craigslist, or borrow a friend or family members. Follow the instructions or YouTube it. Engrave and anodize or cerakote it if you want. Not all that difficult.

My paperweight has been sitting on my desk while I wait for my jig, and I can't wait to drill it out, myself.

I'm not insulting/attacking anyone here, I just want to know why it seems this is the trend.

I bought an 80% and had it milled. My family had no idea what I was doing until all the parts were ready and I was putting it together. My parents flipped out over it. That being said, I don't have a drill press, the space nor friends that have it. Would I have loved to fully do it? Sure. Was it at all feasible? Not in the least bit.