How about starting 81% build parties?

[SJ-Chris]

Curious to know people's feedback on this approach/solution to the recent changes in the home build landscape...

Can I have a TYPE 1 FFL LICENSED GUNSMITH use their CNC machine to repair/finish the last 19% of my FIREARM? [Note: I didn't say, can someone finish my home-built project turning my 80% paperweight into a firearm...]

A little background:
We all know that "80%" is really just nomenclature...it's what the industry has come to name legal to buy paperweights that typically still need the following steps to turn the paperweight into an actual functional firearm:
- fire control group
- trigger pin
- hammer pin
- trigger slot
- safety selector hole

I don't know the exact history, but presumably some companies that wanted to produce "80%" lowers submitted different levels of completed products to the ATF until they got pretty close to the legal edge as to what the ATF would consider a paperweight vs a firearm. I'm guessing that once this became an established benchmark that other manufacturers of 80% lowers just followed in their footsteps. For the purposes of this discussion, let's all agree that 80% refers to the above example and that once a person does any additional work on their lower receiver (ex: they drill the safety selector hole) that they have now crossed the threshold and are in possession of a firearm. [It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to figure out from the ATF what exact additional steps on an 80%er would now classify it as a legal firearm (even though it is still not functional)]. For the sake of this discussion, let's call the 80% paperweight that has had the home builder make the one additional step to now have a legal firearm an 81% lower.

I thought of the following scenario.
- I buy an 80% paperweight.
- I perform the one necessary step to turn it into an 81% lower receiver (legal home-built FIREARM)
- Presumably, this would be one of the "easy" steps, perhaps just drill one hole
- I take my 81% lower receiver FIREARM to a licensed gunsmith (Type 1 license)
- While I am waiting, they use their CNC machine to complete the remaining 19%.
- I leave with my firearm now completed. Still qualifies as a home built firearm.
(the licensed gunsmith simply did work on my firearm which they are allowed to do)
- I came with a firearm and I left with a firearm...they didn't manufacture anything. Just made some modifications.

Since the work by the gunsmith was done while I was there and they didn't keep my firearm overnight they do not need to record anything. Still keeps it off the books and still legal.

I was looking up to see what barriers there were for people to become a licensed gunsmith. From my BRIEF looking, it didn't seem like it was too difficult or too expensive either. Type 1 license would allow you to work on shotguns, pistols, revolvers, and rifles and costs $200.

http://work.chron.com/become-licensed-gunsmith-11741.html

Here is the ATF application:

http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12.pdf

Note: I am not talking about becoming a full blown gunsmith for the purposes of a full-time business in repairing all types of weapons. I recognize there is a tremendous amount of skill, training, and experience involved that can include classes, apprenticeships, etc. When I say "not too difficult" to become a gunsmith I am talking only in reference to say operating a CNC machine to complete/modify a firearm (not a paperweight) from 81% all the way to 100%. Presumably, those that had been operating CNC shops finishing 80%ers already have all the skills necessary. I respect that gunsmiths in the traditional sense of the word are true craftsman.
[Disclaimer: I don't really know much about the rules/requirements of being a licensed gunsmith. Time-frame to become licensed? Expensive insurance needed? I have no idea. If someone can comment on this it would be great information for us. Thanks!]

After coming up with this idea, I did also see a couple posts making reference to something similar in this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=841799&highlight=party

But that was buried in a thread with almost 500 replies and the idea didn't seem to get much attention.

Summary:
- Buy legal 80% lower receiver (paperweight)
- Make easy modification turning it into an 81% lower receiver (non-functional firearm)
- Visit licensed gunsmith who has a CNC machine and is allowed to work on firearms
- Have the gunsmith modify you 81% firearm into a 100% firearm
- Nothing needs to get reported and everything is perfectly legal (correct me if I am wrong)

The DOJ/ATF has shut down CNC shops because they contend that the shops are creating/manufacturing firearms (...people come in with paperweights and leave with firearms). While we might not like their decision, we can certainly all probably at least understand their argument. What I am suggesting is that the CNC shops get licensed (Type 1) as gunsmiths so they can work on firearms. Then, we just need to take our 80% paperweights and ourselves perform 1 step to turn them into a firearm and then visit our CNC gunsmith to finish the firearm. We bring in a firearm and we leave with a firearm...a much different scenario than what has recently been shut down.

Thoughts?

Note: I am a STRONG advocate for following the law. I do not support illegal activities and I do not like even being close to the boundary of what's legal and what is not. If I thought that criminals were building guns to do their dirty work and taking advantage of the "home build" laws to commit crimes, I would probably be okay with the government trying to shut it down. But my understanding is that for criminals it is much easier for them to just buy/steal an illegal gun. I do not like the anti-gun landscape we have and I see home-builds as a way for us to exercise our 2A rights (...and I don't like the idea of all our firearms being registered).

[edgerly779]

He has to have mfg license and register it to you after serialization thru dros process. Just like you would buy a stripped lower. Pay a lot of money for a no name lower. Makes zero sense.

[nobody_special]

Why would they need a manufacturer's license, if they are modifying a part that is deemed by BATFE to already be a firearm?

[SJ-Chris]

He has to have mfg license and register it to you after serialization thru dros process. Just like you would buy a stripped lower. Pay a lot of money for a no name lower. Makes zero sense.

I am by no means an expert (which is the whole purpose of throwing this out there to get other's feedback). But if what we have is already a firearm (after we make the necessary modification to the 80% paperweight to just get it across the threshold to becoming a firearm) then it doesn't seem obvious to me that the gunsmith is manufacturing.

According to the ATF's website:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

"Q: May a person engage in gunsmithing under a dealer’s license (type 01), or do gunsmiths need to be licensed as “manufacturers” of firearms?

Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is: 1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them), 2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and 3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms. "

I will admit that the language seems a bit tricky in 1,2,3 above. Clearly item#1 doesn't apply. I suppose it is possible that #2 applies, but the word "AND" in there implies that #3 must also apply which in this case does not. (the customer is having their firearm repaired/modified....the gunsmith is not making these repairs/modifications because they are then going to sell the firearms to others.

Also from the ATF website for gunsmith FAQ it states:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html

"Q: Is an ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm?

No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom it was received."

and:

"Q: Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent “bound book” record every firearm received for adjustment or repair?

If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an “acquisition.” "

[PoorRichRichard]

YES!

[VendetAR]

You are a sneaky bastard

[SJ-Chris]

You are a sneaky bastard

lol...that's a great scene!

I'm actually NOT trying to be sneaky. I'm looking for solutions that fall within the rules. I can appreciate how the powers that be see walking into a shop with a paperweight and walking out with a firearm is not what they want (right or wrong...not here to debate that). But if I walk into a shop with what they consider a firearm (a lower receiver) and have someone else fix it, repair it, modify it, and I walk out with what they already consider is a firearm (arguably the same lower receiver) then I don't see how that is manufacturing. Therefore, the simpler and cheap Type 1 gunsmith license is all that is required.

I look forward to a lot more feedback on this. I'm smart enough to know that there is much I do not know! But if this ends up being a legal, workable solution that allows us to continue to do home builds then I'll be happy to have contributed... (I've learned a lot from this community)

[VendetAR]

I'd say the only CYA for the FFL is that the lower has a legal serial number and manufacturer info (as in it is to the proper depth).

Other than that, I don't see how it is illegal. Guy comes in with a .125" hole drilled in the FCG pocket and needs it fixed, by the book, its kosher.

Good job (although Im not calling you Ding, he is way cooler than you lol).

[SJ-Chris]

I'd say the only CYA for the FFL is that the lower has a legal serial number and manufacturer info (as in it is to the proper depth).

Other than that, I don't see how it is illegal. Guy comes in with a .125" hole drilled in the FCG pocket and needs it fixed, by the book, its kosher.

Good job (although Im not calling you Ding, he is way cooler than you lol).

I don't think most people mind putting a serial number for identification purposes. If we also had to put a city, caliber, etc I don't consider it the end of the world. Perhaps someone who is a licensed gunsmith can give us some insight...

[edgerly779]

I guess that might work all you have to do is legally engrave it per atf then he can finish it. Probably all in will cost 3-400 bucks with cost of lower, engraving, & final machining. Unless you start with vision arms cast for $36 shipped.

[Quiet]

It's not a firearm until it's 100% complete.

A 0-99% receiver is not a firearm. Even though 81-99% can be treated as one by the Feds.
There is no standard on what determines what is a 80% or 81% receiver, it's subjective and up to the whims of the BATFE.

A "gunsmith" that makes a 0-99% receiver into a 100% receiver (firearm) must be licensed as a manufacturer (Type 07-FFL).

In addition, when they complete the build into a firearm...
*They are required to engrave necessary info onto the receiver.
*Transfer (4473/DROS/10 day wait) it to you.

[Quiet]

Under CA laws, a "gunsmith" needs to have a FFL (Type 01 or 07). [PC 16630]



Penal Code 16630
As used in this part, "gunsmith" means any person who is licensed as a dealer pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto, who is engaged primarily in the business of repairing firearms, or making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or the agent or employee of that person.

[bohoki]

It's not a firearm until it's 100% complete.

A 0-99% receiver is not a firearm. Even though 81-99% can be treated as one by the Feds.
There is no standard on what determines what is a 80% or 81% receiver, it's subjective and up to the whims of the BATFE.

A "gunsmith" that makes a 0-99% receiver into a 100% receiver (firearm) must be licensed as a manufacturer (Type 07-FFL).

In addition, when they complete the build into a firearm...
*They are required to engrave necessary info onto the receiver.
*Transfer (4473/DROS/10 day wait) it to you.

you are wrong the atf says you cannot sell an 80% paperweight if it has even one fire control hole drilled even if its an indent

so that means it is a "firearm"

many have had this idea and it slow getting an opinion out of the batfe's f.t.b

this is what happens when you have an arbitrary threshold

i think it would be against the spirit of the rules if the gunsmith sold the 80% then worked on it after you've made a gun out of it

so to be safe i think the mill manager should not be offering 80% for sale

[SJ-Chris]

It's not a firearm until it's 100% complete.

A 0-99% receiver is not a firearm. Even though 81-99% can be treated as one by the Feds.
There is no standard on what determines what is a 80% or 81% receiver, it's subjective and up to the whims of the BATFE.

A "gunsmith" that makes a 0-99% receiver into a 100% receiver (firearm) must be licensed as a manufacturer (Type 07-FFL).

In addition, when they complete the build into a firearm...
*They are required to engrave necessary info onto the receiver.
*Transfer (4473/DROS/10 day wait) it to you.

Yes, the gunsmith would need to have a license. Type 1 looks easy and inexpensive. (Still waiting for someone who has been through the process to chime in)

Our assumption is that companies legally selling 80% paperweight have figured out that if they performed just one more step in the process that they would have crossed the line and would no longer be selling paperweights...they would be selling a firearm. We have a misconception that this is some kind of gray area...I don't think it needs to be. With some trial and error we can get a determination letter from the BATFE telling us what is and what is not a firearm (just like the companies selling 80%ers did).

It doesn't seem like they can have it both ways. Up to this point we have been going at our home builds from one direction...now we can approach it from the other direction.

[SJ-Chris]

I guess that might work all you have to do is legally engrave it per atf then he can finish it. Probably all in will cost 3-400 bucks with cost of lower, engraving, & final machining. Unless you start with vision arms cast for $36 shipped.

I am not sure if engraving and a serial number is required. But many people who have been doing home builds engrave and put a serial number on their home builds anyways. It has been mentioned many times that it is a good idea to put a serial number on it (...reduces a potential hassle if LEO sees it, allows for transfer in the distant future should one later decide to sell it, identification should it get lost or stolen...).

Cost for an 80% aluminum lower: ~$70-$150
Cost to engrave: ~$30-$100
Cost for gunsmith repair/machining on your firearm: ~$65

Total cost of your home built lower firearm: ~$165-$300. Anodizing would be extra. The fact of the matter is: Many many people have been doing exactly this already. There are many reasons why people build their own lower receiver....cost savings is not one of them. Let's not worry about cost for the purposes of this discussion...just trying to find an avenue for us being able to continue with an easier time completing our aluminum lowers.