Future weapons and 5.56mm

[1lostinspace]

it's all Greek to me ^

[M. Sage]

Hydrodynamic has been proven junk science lol so explain the killing power of .308 FMJ?

Still will tumble. Big wound cavity.

[pTa]

A return to the viet-era 1:11 twist barrels should give the current AR platform the instability to tumble upon entry. Trying to make the AR a long range weapon is why its lost its ability to inflict heavier damage.

Maybe returning to the lighter 55grn bullets would help as well.

[Springfield45]

In a perfect world it is all about shot placement. So a .22LR would be all you would need because you could just do head shots. In the real world you shoot center mass and continue to shoot until the target is taken out. I know of one story were the soldier entered a room and shot a insurgent six times from 10 meters away and the target did not fall. The seventh round was a head shot put the insurgent out of action. A larger round would have put the enemy down with one or two shots center mass.

The 5.56mm is ineffective in close quarters combat, period. During VietNam the M16 prototypes had a very slow rifling twist making the fast travelling bullets barley stable in flight. When they impacted it caused massive amounts of damage (more than the 7.62x51mm). Before the M16A1 was put in to production the Air Force petitioned to have a faster rifling rate added to meet their long range weapons standards. The new rifles were more accurate but suffered a 50% decrease in lethality. Remember we only had one rifle for all the services.

Is the M16A2/ M4 not effective? No, it is very effective. If the modern 5.56mm hits a enemy soldier wearing body armor and gear it will destabilize and kill them. We are not fighting a well equipped enemy, we are fighting a fundamentally religious nomadic people who are often only equipped with only a rifle and spare magazines. Our bullets are whizzing right though them.

I believe we do need a better bullet. You can't count on all ways being able to put 5 rounds in the X ring every time while 10 of your enemy are shooting at you at the same time. We have known what is the optimal caliber range is stopping power and range is since the 1930's. The M1 Garand was originally chambered in the 276 Pedersen, a .27 caliber bullet. It was fast, lighter than 30 caliber ammo, and flat shooting for long range. The only reason it was not adopted was that we had thousands of rounds of 30-06 all ready stock piled ready for use. A .27 caliber bullet offers a long range bullet that can still hit with all most as much power as a .30 caliber one.

The new 6.8mm SPC and the 6.5mm Grendel offer this .27 caliber bullet with out compromising magazine capacity. They promise to be effective at long range while being more effective at close range. It will add some more weight to the soldier to carry but I thing they would welcome it for being more effective. However we will not adopt a new round with out any supply infrastructure available for it while we are still fighting over seas. So we are stuck with the 5.56mm for a while. And there are still a few ways to improve it while continuing to obey our ancient treaties for the "rules of war".

A bigger bullet is always better than a smaller one. Case in point. I have talked to a few people who were shot with a 9mm. I have talked to a couple who were shot with a .40 S&W. I have not met anyone ever shot by a .45 ACP.

[1lostinspace]

In a perfect world it is all about shot placement. So a .22LR would be all you would need because you could just do head shots. In the real world you shoot center mass and continue to shoot until the target is taken out. I know of one story were the soldier entered a room and shot a insurgent six times from 10 meters away and the target did not fall. The seventh round was a head shot put the insurgent out of action. A larger round would have put the enemy down with one or two shots center mass.

The 5.56mm is ineffective in close quarters combat, period. During VietNam the M16 prototypes had a very slow rifling twist making the fast travelling bullets barley stable in flight. When they impacted it caused massive amounts of damage (more than the 7.62x51mm). Before the M16A1 was put in to production the Air Force petitioned to have a faster rifling rate added to meet their long range weapons standards. The new rifles were more accurate but suffered a 50% decrease in lethality. Remember we only had one rifle for all the services.

Is the M16A2/ M4 not effective? No, it is very effective. If the modern 5.56mm hits a enemy soldier wearing body armor and gear it will destabilize and kill them. We are not fighting a well equipped enemy, we are fighting a fundamentally religious nomadic people who are often only equipped with only a rifle and spare magazines. Our bullets are whizzing right though them.

I believe we do need a better bullet. You can't count on all ways being able to put 5 rounds in the X ring every time while 10 of your enemy are shooting at you at the same time. We have known what is the optimal caliber range is stopping power and range is since the 1930's. The M1 Garand was originally chambered in the 276 Pedersen, a .27 caliber bullet. It was fast, lighter than 30 caliber ammo, and flat shooting for long range. The only reason it was not adopted was that we had thousands of rounds of 30-06 all ready stock piled ready for use. A .27 caliber bullet offers a long range bullet that can still hit with all most as much power as a .30 caliber one.

The new 6.8mm SPC and the 6.5mm Grendel offer this .27 caliber bullet with out compromising magazine capacity. They promise to be effective at long range while being more effective at close range. It will add some more weight to the soldier to carry but I thing they would welcome it for being more effective. However we will not adopt a new round with out any supply infrastructure available for it while we are still fighting over seas. So we are stuck with the 5.56mm for a while. And there are still a few ways to improve it while continuing to obey our ancient treaties for the "rules of war".

A bigger bullet is always better than a smaller one. Case in point. I have talked to a few people who were shot with a 9mm. I have talked to a couple who were shot with a .40 S&W. I have not met anyone ever shot by a .45

ACP.

that is not true a small bullet that hit's and frags is going to go far more damage then a slightly bigger diameter one.

[1lostinspace]

Still will tumble. Big wound cavity.

Not really it's the temporary cavity is what kills in .308 not the wound, if that was the case the 5.56mm would kill more effectively. As you can see the whole shook wave that turns meat into gello. at 9" of penetration the round still has not tumbled. So .308 fmj goes in and out killing with the temporary cavity.

So you see hydro shock is a real killer and not crap as you mentioned earlier.
When was the last time you had a vital organ stressed out and feel normal afterwards?


here the SP as you can see there is a huge difference between a tumbling round and one that expands and fragments.

[retired]

He is a weapon idiot and a tool, regardless of the fact that he is a former seal and sniper.

But he gets to have fun shooting all sorts of weaponry and gets paid to do it. I bet no one here would refuse his job. Ah, what a life.

[Toolbox X]

Not really it's the temporary cavity is what kills in .308 not the wound, if that was the case the 5.56mm would kill more effectively. As you can see the whole shook wave that turns meat into gello. at 9" of penetration the round still has not tumbled. So .308 fmj goes in and out killing with the temporary cavity.

So you see hydro shock is a real killer and not crap as you mentioned earlier.
When was the last time you had a vital organ stressed out and feel normal afterwards?

Everything I have read says that temporary cavity does zero permanent damage. Organs and tissue are super-resilient.

You are confusing hydrostatic shock and temporary cavity. They are not the same thing.

Hydrostatic shock is the theory that a bullet traveling at extremely high velocity will create a shockwave that is so violent that it actually does permanent disruption (damage) to tissue around the path of the bullet.

Temporary cavity is simply the organs and tissue being pushed by the inertia of the bullet. They bounce right back and do not sustain any damage. Only the tissue that comes in direct contact with the bullet takes damage, which is why fragmentation and expansion are so effective.

This is one of the reasons the M4 has an effective range of only 80m or so. After that distance the 5.56 round has lost so much velocity that it is no longer capable of hydrostatic shock or fragmentation. That is also why the 20" M16 has an effective range of around 150m. The longer barrel of the M16 makes the bullet travel faster for longer, which increases the range where the bullet will still be traveling fast enough to do hydrostatic shock and fragment.

However, hydrostatic shock is not completely proven, and there are a large number of factors that can contribute to a bullet's ineffectiveness in addition to lower velocities.

Read the Ammo Oracle and you will learn much: http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/

[leelaw]

Eh, some tissues are sensitive to the temporary cavity. IIRC, the kidneys are not forgiving to elastic stress.

[Toolbox X]

Eh, some tissues are sensitive to the temporary cavity. IIRC, the kidneys are not forgiving to elastic stress.

And if your goal is to make your target die a few months later from kidney failure then you are all set

[1lostinspace]

Everything I have read says that temporary cavity does zero permanent damage. Organs and tissue are super-resilient.

You are confusing hydrostatic shock and temporary cavity. They are not the same thing.

Hydrostatic shock is the theory that a bullet traveling at extremely high velocity will create a shockwave that is so violent that it actually does permanent disruption (damage) to tissue around the path of the bullet.

Temporary cavity is simply the organs and tissue being pushed by the inertia of the bullet. They bounce right back and do not sustain any damage. Only the tissue that comes in direct contact with the bullet takes damage, which is why fragmentation and expansion are so effective.

This is one of the reasons the M4 has an effective range of only 80m or so. After that distance the 5.56 round has lost so much velocity that it is no longer capable of hydrostatic shock or fragmentation. That is also why the 20" M16 has an effective range of around 150m. The longer barrel of the M16 makes the bullet travel faster for longer, which increases the range where the bullet will still be traveling fast enough to do hydrostatic shock and fragment.

However, hydrostatic shock is not completely proven, and there are a large number of factors that can contribute to a bullet's ineffectiveness in addition to lower velocities.

Read the Ammo Oracle and you will learn much: http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/

The ammo oracle lol now that's funny who has not read that? I posted a link to it a few pages back.

so you think your vital organs bounce right back? lol picture this inside your stomach or chest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL-liPFY5-I&feature=related

I don't think everything will work fine afterwards do you?

If you have ever hunted you would know that there is a whole area where the meat is bruised been the temporary cavity.

I have been involved in martial arts for 14 years now and can tell you a good punch to the stomach liver or kidneys and your down! Believe me the temporary cavity caused from hydro shook will and does kill. Think about it your insides are been spread apart at 2-3 times the speed of sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8vGXGO1XGY&feature=related

check this out and you will get a better understanding

[1lostinspace]

And if your goal is to make your target die a few months later from kidney failure then you are all set

no you die where you stand.

[Centurion_D]

For all those who don't like 5.56 yet have 5.56 caliber rifle I have a solution. Give your ammo to me!!! I'll take good care of it!!!

[Toolbox X]

The ammo oracle lol now that's funny who has not read that? I posted a link to it a few pages back.

so you think your vital organs bounce right back? lol picture this inside your stomach or chest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL-liPFY5-I&feature=related

I don't think everything will work fine afterwards do you?

If you have ever hunted you would know that there is a whole area where the meat is bruised been the temporary cavity.

I have been involved in martial arts for 14 years now and can tell you a good punch to the stomach liver or kidneys and your down! Believe me the temporary cavity caused from hydro shook will and does kill. Think about it your insides are been spread apart at 2-3 times the speed of sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8vGXGO1XGY&feature=related

check this out and you will get a better understanding

Those videos are for 180gr Hollow Point .308 Barnes Triple Shock-X bullets, designed for hunting large game. They are traveling at speeds battle rifles cannot attain, and they mention nothing about temporary cavity. They actually prove my point that the only damage you can count on is the damage done by the bullet itself.

Also, I'm not talking at all about doing long term damage to the target. I'm talking about incapacitation as quickly as possible. There is no question that getting shot at all is life threatening and long term damage will in all likelyhood come from taking any rifle round to the chest.

My point is the 5.56 round is not effective at stopping bad guys quickly. Sure it works okay, but personally I would rather use something more effective.

This is an excellent website you can learn from. http://www.firearmstactical.com/

-Grant

[Ironchef]

Wow, 12 pages of caliber debate! Maybe it's because we haven't had one in over a month!