1911+loaded+holster=dangerous?

[nastyhabts26]

Why do people keep repeating this tripe.

JM Browning's original design did not even have a thumb safety in it...it was meant to be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber; jsut as the Colt manual still states. The inclusion of the thumb safety was forced by the Army Board so that Calvary officers could Safe the gun, prior to holstering it, without shooting their horse.



Carrying a 1911 Cock-n-Locked didn't become common until the 50s

This is interesting to me.
My Springfield manual said not to drop the hammer on a live cartridge which is 180 degrees from what colt says.
I have never dropped the hammer on a cartridge because of what the manual said.
Maybe Springfield had some sort of incident and their legal dept made them print that.

[pastureofmuppets]

So i was talking to a couple of guys today that have worked security and they where saying that a loaded holstered 1911 (one in the chamber) is dangerous and stupid?

Can someone explain?

[Dannicus]

Actually most of them are probably there because of liability/workers comp insurance, and the lawyers who are reviewing policies these days. We had one there was never a single nd in the department, but when we got the new building in one went because of liability/worker's comp insurance.

Same root cause, man.

[1859sharps]

The 1911 has four safety features - Half cock, thumb safety, grip safety and the one between your ears!

Safety number 4 is the one most likely to fail

[9mmepiphany]

It was how it was designed to be carried. It was in fact designed to be carried.

People have been doing it for over 100 years.

Um...not really. Maybe 50 years

I could understand if you missed Post #39 on the first page, but the post just above yours quotes Post #39 in explaining why this just isn't true

[redcliff]

The first known recommendation for what we now refer to as Condition 1 carry that I am aware of is from a 1940 Army Field Manual FM 23-35:

"In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not forseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, it should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand. When the pistol is carried in the holster loaded, cocked and locked the butt should be rotated away from the body when drawing the pistol in order to avoid displacing the safety lock"

[pastureofmuppets]

Um...not really. Maybe 50 years

I could understand if you missed Post #39 on the first page, but the post just above yours quotes Post #39 in explaining why this just isn't true

I don't know why I comment on 1911 threads…

The model 1905 was the first iteration of what became the 1911. That had no safeties at all.

The grip safety and lanyard ring were the features mandated by the horse soldiers.

The 1909 trial model had a grip safety, but originally had no thumb safety. The Model 1910 began without the safety, but the later ones had it.


It wasn't a 1911 until it was adopted by the Army. Then it was designated the "Model of 1911". That had both manual and grip safety.


So yes, 1911's did have manual and grip safeties from the get go. Before that, they weren't M1911's... because it wasn't 1911 yet.

That the the 1911 was to be carried in Condition One is fairly obvious - there is no actual use for the thumb safety otherwise.

It doesn't even function unless the hammer is cocked.

[Ronin2]

A loaded, cocked and locked 1911 in a holster is only dangerous if the operator thereof is untrained, unpracticed, complacent, has a severe case of rectocranial inversion, or any combination of these. Please don't get your firearms advice from security guards (or for that matter, most cops and just about any gun store employee).

^^This! + 1

[opie4386]

Could you tell me how I'm wrong?

Enough inertia can be obtained by dropping a Series 70 1911 with a steel firing pin and weakened firing pin spring to compress the spring enough to strike the primer.

http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/11/23/1911-drop-testing/

"I was amazed at how easily a Series 70 1911 could be drop fired"



http://drakesgunworks.com/Drop_Testing.html

You can do it with an ar15 as well. Case in point any firearm dropped can go off.

[hermosabeach]

a few things-

The 1911 Drop test video has a link to the web site.... they show that the pistol needs to be dropped from 6 FEET before they had 1 discharge... more towards 8 feet to get any sort of consistency in shots being fired....

I am not tall enough that I could drop my pistol from 6 FEET above the ground if dropped from a holster height.

next thing-

The barrel is pointed directly into the ground... so this could be a danger if your 2nd story floor is thin enough to be penetrated and the 1st floor ceiling is thin enough to be penetrated... if on the ground, the round would go into the earth....

The only non user related issue I have seen with a 1911 is with a Match trigger and Kydex.

Kydex holsters retain a pistol by tension against the trigger guard. Match triggers are wider that stock in many cases... thing Gold Cup and Springfield...

So it is possible that if you holster a 1911 with the wider match trigger and you violate the safety rules and leave the safety off, you could catch the trigger on the trigger guard and fire a round into the holster and beyond.



It is safe to say that the 1911 is a popular platform with MILLIONS of the 70 series pistols being used....



So when was the last time an ND from a 70 series being dropped hit the newspaper.....

[BKinzey]

Why do people keep repeating this tripe.

JM Browning's original design did not even have a thumb safety in it...it was meant to be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber; jsut as the Colt manual still states. The inclusion of the thumb safety was forced by the Army Board so that Calvary officers could Safe the gun, prior to holstering it, without shooting their horse.



Carrying a 1911 Cock-n-Locked didn't become common until the
50s

That's a picture of a 1910 isn't it? A precursor to the 1911. So if one is being picky, that's not really a 1911.

ETA:
Pastureofmuppets beat me to it......

[Blackhorse2010]

A loaded, cocked and locked 1911 in a holster is only dangerous if the operator thereof is untrained, unpracticed, complacent, has a severe case of rectocranial inversion, or any combination of these. Please don't get your firearms advice from security guards (or for that matter, most cops and just about any gun store employee).

As an armed security officer, I guess that places me into this category.
My 24 years in the Army and being a handgun instructor doesn't count.
Two of the guys I work security with shoot 3-gun all the time, and one shoots IDPA, so no one should listen to them either.

[postal]

This is interesting to me.
My Springfield manual said not to drop the hammer on a live cartridge which is 180 degrees from what colt says.
I have never dropped the hammer on a cartridge because of what the manual said.
Maybe Springfield had some sort of incident and their legal dept made them print that.

****DONT DO THIS!!*****

There is far too much risk you dont slow the hammer enough, or slip when dropping the hammer, and you will have an ND!

NO ONE DOES THIS ANYMORE- People that want to carry hammer down on a live round, should buy a different platform with a decocker lever...

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

As an armed security officer, I guess that places me into this category.
My 24 years in the Army and being a handgun instructor doesn't count.
Two of the guys I work security with shoot 3-gun all the time, and one shoots IDPA, so no one should listen to them either.

Don't get your panties in a wad, brother. That advice isn't all-encompassing as I've been all three of the professions I named. There are always exceptions to the rule.

The thrust of my statement is that being a cop, security guard or gun store employee does not make one an instant expert on firearms. Guess I should have thrown in "3 gun or IDPA competitor" as that by itself doesn't either. Is the picture clearer now? Geez, some folks have skins so thin they're see-through...

[cindynles]

Don't get your panties in a wad, brother. That advice isn't all-encompassing as I've been all three of the professions I named. There are always exceptions to the rule.

The thrust of my statement is that being a cop, security guard or gun store employee does not make one an instant expert on firearms. Guess I should have thrown in "3 gun or IDPA competitor" as that by itself doesn't either. Is the picture clearer now? Geez, some folks have skins so thin they're see-through.

At least a 3-Gun / IDPA / IPSC competitor shoots their gun more than once or twice a year