Does law Enforcement really need select fire?

[IrishJoe3]

We used machine guns mainly for suppression or for targets generally beyond the range of an M4.

?

That is NOT what submachine guns are used for, (MP5 etc). And subguns are the vast majority of autos that LEOs have.

[falar]

That is NOT what submachine guns are used for, (MP5 etc). And subguns are the vast majority of autos that LEOs have.

I've never seen a cop with a submachine gun. It seems that everyone is so worried about body armor these days so subguns are falling out of favor and select fire M4 type weapons seem to be popping up in the hands of LE more and more.

Now in my post I specifically mentioned "machine guns"; i.e. M240B, M249 etc. I guess I should have been more specific. The point I was making was that that was the role of full auto in today's military. Not everyone has the same experience, but in the total of about 1 year I spent overseas no one in my unit ever used their M4 on burst to my knowledge. In almost every conceivable scenario rapid, aimed or semi-aimed shots fired "semiautomatically" are superior to spray and pray. I don't think most people even realize how fast a 30rd magazine disappears in full auto.

Now, getting back to subguns. I have very little experience with these. I never even saw one the entire time I was in the Army. Even if we pulled security for some sort of high-speed unit I never saw them carry anything other than rfiles. I have "rented" an MP5-SD a few times with what I believe is referred to as the "Navy" configuration of Safe-Semi-Burst-Auto and while definitely more controllable than an M4 being fired on burst/auto the ammunition consumption is still rather fast. I got much tighter groups with burst and even more firing rapid fire semi with progressively less wasted ammo.

[KABA556]

Aren't you one of those who paid my salary? Do you live off the grid and never pay taxes?



If we don't, no one will be introducing criminals into the court system. The jails and prisons that are now holding thousands of criminals, will open up and they'll be free to again victimize the public. I'd guess that you want to think that because you have a gun and the mindset to use it, that you won't have to worry about that happening because you'll be able to defend yourself. But when you're at work, you're not guarding your kids, your wife, or your TV set.

If you think it's armed citizens who keep gangs in check, you don't have a clue. When the cops stop doing their job, we'll have Thunderdome.

Yeah because we had Thunderdome in 1810...


When the cops stop doing their job and they're not around to protect criminals, we'll have armed citizens cleaning up their towns. I'd have no problem banding together with other citizens and cleaning up the town.

Pirates were historically declared enemies of humanity and were to be killed on sight. I believe that gang members could reasonably be declared "enemies of humanity" meaning if you're strutting around town "representing" with gang tattoos and gang colors from MS-13, you're shot on sight, no questions asked, because you're a pirate, an enemy of humanity.


Until about the 1860s and 1870s, most arrests were handled by private citizens acting on a warrant issued by a local judge.



Don't you dare patronize me and expect me to believe that police protect children, wives, electronics... Warren v District of Columbia (1981) the court ruled that police have no duty to even answer calls for assistance.


I have never had a police car parked outside of my house even when I was faced with death threats from a certifiably insane individual who had spent time in a mental asylum. Police also tend to lack teleportation devices so in the event I were to call for help, they're at least 10-20 minutes away on any given day, so much for helping me...


We don't need you anywhere near as much as you need us. You need us to fund your projects, pay for your equipment, pay for your pension. You'd have us believe that YOU are the only thing standing between our families and a gang of 30 crack dealing rapists who want to gang rape all the women of the house. Society functioned for centuries without professional police.

WE DO NOT NEED YOU!

[KABA556]

If you think it's armed citizens who keep gangs in check, you don't have a clue. When the cops stop doing their job, we'll have Thunderdome.

Basically this is you-






This is me-

"No we really don't need you."



Obviously we're going to have a major disagreement, you're an authoritarian personality aspiring to have a tyranny in this nation and I believe that if the people simply embrace basic civic virtue then the professional police class becomes unnecessary and indeed dangerous to the nation. Really, we don't need you.

[KABA556]

If that dude had full auto he would have dumped a mag (30 rounds fired) and a **** ton of them would have missed (hitting god knows what) and assuming it is a full auto AR we are talking about the ones the hit him (depending on ammo type) could have passed through and done more damage also.

Outside of the Sheriff's Department today I saw a guard watching over two inmates being forced to engage in manual menial labor of cleaning the entrance of the Sheriff's Station... Both inmates were lean with a sort of tough hard look to them, about 5'10 to 6'0 tall and perhaps 155 to 175 pounds. The man watching over them was about 5'10 but not an ounce under 450 pounds, when they say "thin blue line" they're not talking about his waistline...

If things ever go Mad Max in this nation, inmates like that are going to eat those cops alive.

http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/manteca-calif-killer-cop.html

On Dec. 12, the San Joaquin County District Attorney's Office cleared Manteca police officer John Moody of any wrongdoing for the shooting death of Ernest Duenez Jr. on June 8, 2011. Moody fired 13 times, with 11 bullets hitting Duenez as he struggled to exit a truck parked in his own yard. Moody is back on the job, free to continue terrorizing the people of Manteca.

The DA claims that Moody legitimately believed his life was in danger, claiming that he saw Duenez with a throwing knife in hand. After Duenez's death, the Manteca police had to acknowledge that the reason Duenez was slow to exit the vehicle was because his leg had become caught in the safety belt. Police claim that a small knife was found in the truck bed, while Duenez was in the passenger seat.

After Duenez's death, his brother Gabriel led weekly protests outside the Manteca Police Department. Ludicrously, the Manteca police were granted a restraining order against Gabriel Duenez, claiming that his peaceful protests constituted a “threat” to the entire police department. His protests continued but 100 yards from the department.

Rosemary Duenez, Ernest's mother, has vowed to continue the fight for her son. She told Liberation News, “We won't give up till we get justice, till John Moody sees justice.” Whitney Duenez, Ernest's widow, added, “Till he sees something more than three days' paid vacation.”

[lavey29]

I have seen both good and bad LEO's over the years. The ones that have contempt for the public are the ones that tend to be the bad apples. Those kinds of officers are the ones that demand respect and often abuse their authority.

I have also met and dealt with a few good officers too. They do their job, serve the community and have a good attitude about it.

One thing that is troublesome is the "circle the wagons" mentality that they have. The good cops will protect the bad ones. I always applaud any officer that reports poor behavior from other officers. It shows there is hope to get rid of the bad apples.

On this particular subject, I starting on a civil liberties stand that LEO's should have the same access to weapons as the average citizen. After reading the responses from various LEO's in this thread, including one self professed instructor, I am dead set against it. If the posters in this thread are any indication, they are reckless and dangerous. I question whether they should be allowed to have any weapons at all.

I was taught that self defense ends when the threat ends Fire three rounds at a time and reassess whether the threat still exists after each group of three. Even if all three rounds miss, the "threat" might stop or flee when met with gunfire. These officers are purposefully trained to fire as many rounds as quickly as they can into the "threat". My training was to preserve life if at all possible. Their training is reckless.

It reminds me of this video where about 2/3's of the rounds fired were made after the "threat" was on the ground writhing in pain. Yes, the initial rounds were justified, but the majority of the round IMO were not. The officer either failed to reassess the threat, or didn't care. He kept shooting, even slowed his shots towards the end to almost ensure that they were lethal.



They need full auto.

Obvioulsy you have been under fire quite a few times or involved in multiple shootings over the years perhaps in the military and have develioped an advanced skill set. You obviously have a great mind set for handling stress and making split second decisions on the application of deadly force and then being able to adjust that split second decision with robot like precision and re-assess your situation in the heat of the battle under stress. I applaud your super human abilities.

[KABA556]

Could it be that you don't have the wherewithal to do anything BUT "talk them down?"

Bank tellers are FIRED for opposing robbers...

So you want to take DISCRETION on my part and recast it as cowardice because you're an authoritarian monster who is going to smear, with ad hominems, anybody who dares to breathe a word against your corrupt value system.


What do you THINK [if you're capable of thinking that hard] would happen to a retail clerk who leaps across the counter to attack a customer who just threatened to come back into the store with a weapon and begin killing people if the product doesn't function as the package states it is supposed to function.

1- The customer will deny having uttered any such threatening words.

2- The clerk will be fired.

3- The clerk will be arrested.

4- The clerk will be sued.

5- The store will be sued.


Maybe with your "logic" you respond to everything with violence, knowing the FOP has your back, I didn't have that luxury.


Some of us have to process a situation and decide on the best course of action, we don't have the luxury of being able to instantly respond with violent force knowing that if we made the wrong call an army of co-workers, FOP union lawyers, and other folks, will have our back.


Most cities seem to have policies where they won't hire applicants for a cop job if they score ABOVE a certain number on an IQ test.

http://politix.topix.com/homepage/5876-court-oks-barring-high-iqs-for-cops

Well you know what? It shows!

I'm not surprised that many cities refuse to hire anybody with an IQ above 125 for a cop job, or that the national average for police is 104, slightly above average... Smart enough to know how to fill out reports, document a crime scene, testify in court, and follow orders...

Not smart enough to begin philosophizing and pondering major issues about the Constitutionality of being tasked with breaking up a peaceful demonstration and pepper spraying people.

Not smart enough to begin philosophizing and pondering major issues about the morality or Constitutionality of confiscating guns from law-abiding disaster victims in the aftermath of a massive hurricane.


That's just how the big city political machines want them, smart enough to read and write, not smart enough to ask questions or dare to challenge authority.


Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry, they would have been miserable failures if they had been professional police officers. They think too much and ask too many questions.

[KABA556]

To expand on your narrow statement ... there are people who ARE tripping over themselves to become LEO's When I got started there were 300 applicants for one opening on a small PD. When LAPD opens up for applications, thousands show up. The line wraps around the building, several times.

I'm sure in the middle of the Great Depression in the 1930s there were lines of thousands of people eager to get a steady job as a cop, only there weren't many openings...


So the economy has basically been destroyed and they have thousands of college graduates competing with thousands of people who barely passed high school, for a chance at a job that might start at $70,000 dollars per year with full benefits [see the starting pay for Pennsylvania State Police and New York State Police]...

Where else in the nation can you make $35,000 dollars during a 6 month academy period and then immediately rise to $66,000 [base pay] per year the day you graduate academy, rising to $72,000 after just one year and then $84,000 per year after 5 years. That's the New York State Police...

Hell, you'd be insane not to imagine thousands of people lining up for a chance at a job like that!

There are people with MBAs working as administrative clerks for $12 dollars per hour or $15 dollars per hour, why wouldn't they want to try their hand at being a cop for $40 dollars per hour + overtime and shift differentials and the opportunity to do paid security at special events?


And then we see on stupid cop dramas some actor playing a cop whining about how underpaid they are and how nobody appreciates the work they do and how hard and horrible the job is... Oh yeah, I feel so sorry for you for only making $90,000 dollars last year, how did you make ends meet!

Nobody is hiring in the way of industry because industry is basically dead in this nation. The largest employer is the government, whether federal government, state governments, or local governments, and that's just how the government wants it. Most people either depend on the government for a job or they depend on the government for hand-outs and freebies... The tyranny wants people to depend on it.



Cops are a crucial component of the tyranny in that the banker class has used fake worthless toilet paper money, printed out of nothing, backed by nothing, to hire a sizable number of otherwise unemployable poor/lower middle class individuals as police to keep the working class and the productive laboring farmer/rancher/business owner class in line while their wealth is pillaged to further fuel the tyranny.

Basically the super rich who are printing the paper fiat money and perpetrating a massive fraud against this nation have hired themselves an army of mercenary soldiers and mercenary police/security forces whose primary job is to maintain a presence such that the citizens of the nation are terrorized into submission and don't even dare think to speak out, let alone rise up, to challenge the fraud, out of fear that they will be thoroughly crushed by the overwhelming force of the police state.

If it wasn't for police and soldiers there wouldn't be a Federal Reserve. They have used monopoly money to hire 2% of this nation to serve as mercenaries to keep the other 98% in line at bayonet point.

If you don't have the skills or intelligence to become a doctor, you're not disciplined enough to be a farmer, you're not capable of learning to become a technician or a chemist, can't handle engineering, don't want to take the risks of staring a small business, but you're willing to beat your fellow citizens with a club and maybe shoot some with a gun if they dare to speak out or rise up against the central bank, then step in line, get a badge, and make $80,000 dollars per year to be available at the banker's call.

[lavey29]

We used machine guns mainly for suppression or for targets generally beyond the range of an M4.

I can't really think of any time that LE has had to face any kind of situation where they would need them. If it wasn't for NFA '34 I probably wouldn't care as much but if we "don't need them" and can't have them (yes, transferrables exist but will continue to dwindle) then why should they?

North Hollywood 1994.

[KABA556]

North Hollywood 1994.

Why is the bank's money more important than your house and your possessions?

Police seem to be able to respond to a bank robbery within minutes, sometimes less than 90 seconds. How long does it take police to respond to a report of a burglary?


Let the banks defend their own money. Why should taxpayers have to pay for a police force that exists essentially to protect corporate property?

[falar]

North Hollywood 1994.

They didn't need full auto, they needed rifles. The problem was going against guys in body armor when they were armed with pistols and shotguns, calibers that have little to no effect on rifle plates.

Supposedly the story I heard was they borrowed semiautomatic ARs from a local FFL to take the guys down. Full auto would have only made that situation worse IMO.

[KABA556]

Police want to preserve the status quo because they have a vested interest in the present system and the present police state system. As defenders of corporate property they will be out of work when the system finally collapses because it cannot be sustained.

[SactoDoug]

Obvioulsy you have been under fire quite a few times or involved in multiple shootings over the years perhaps in the military and have develioped an advanced skill set. You obviously have a great mind set for handling stress and making split second decisions on the application of deadly force and then being able to adjust that split second decision with robot like precision and re-assess your situation in the heat of the battle under stress. I applaud your super human abilities.

You have me confused with bigger hammer. I was trained to fire three rounds, pause, reassess the situation and continue firing only if needed. bigger hammer says he can reassess the situation as he is pulling the trigger as fast as possible. Now that takes superhuman split second decision making literally as each round is squeezed off in .2-.3 seconds.

The video you quoted shows how well "firing until they stop" works at killing a person. That officer fired most of his rounds as the man was on the ground. That guy might have lived if he only had three holes in him instead of 11. It doesn't take superhuman split second decision making to wait to see if the guy is going to stay down or is going to try to get up and come after you. It appears that "until they stop" in LE lingo means dead or unconscious. In that video, the guy was on the ground, not moving towards the officer anymore, but he was still moving as more rounds were pumped into him. So he was not "stopped" yet, or at least his heart was not.

[KABA556]

You have me confused with bigger hammer. I was trained to fire three rounds, pause, reassess the situation and continue firing only if needed. bigger hammer says he can reassess the situation as he is pulling the trigger as fast as possible. Now that takes superhuman split second decision making literally as each round is squeezed off in .2-.3 seconds.

The video you quoted shows how well "firing until they stop" works at killing a person. That officer fired most of his rounds as the man was on the ground. That guy might have lived if he only had three holes in him instead of 11. It doesn't take superhuman split second decision making to wait to see if the guy is going to stay down or is going to try to get up and come after you. It appears that "until they stop" in LE lingo means dead or unconscious. In that video, the guy was on the ground, not moving towards the officer anymore, but he was still moving as more rounds were pumped into him. So he was not "stopped" yet, or at least his heart was not.

They even managed to shoot him in the back as he rolled over, already on the ground.

[flhxxx]

I am all for law enforcement having full auto assault weapons, if I can have them as well.

Otherwise, no, sorry, but they should not have access to weapons that I as a citizen cannot use to defend myself.

As it stands they can get full auto, they can buy handguns that are not on the DOJ approved list, they can carry striking weapons like the ASP Expandable Baton that would be a felony for non-law enforcement personnel.