Does law Enforcement really need select fire?

[SactoDoug]

If you turned off the bias, you would see that I already gave my answer to that question.
Just because it wasn't the answer that you wanted doesn't make it any less of an answer.

You are obfuscating. Your previous answer was just as unclear as this one.

I asked a direct question and you refuse to give a direct answer.

[TRICKSTER]

You are obfuscating. Your previous answer was just as unclear as this one.

I asked a direct question and you refuse to give a direct answer.

Like I said, I gave you an answer. Your lack of understanding it or accepting it is your problem.

[SactoDoug]

Like I said, I gave you an answer. Your lack of understanding it or accepting it is your problem.

You mean this non-answer?

You don't answer the basic question, then refer back to your non-answer. Then insult my intelligence when I call you on it.

Here you go again. Are you refusing to answer or are you incapable of answering?

Is there or is there not a need for LE to have FA weapons? If so, state clearly what that need is.

[TRICKSTER]

You mean this non-answer?

You don't answer the basic question, then refer back to your non-answer. Then insult my intelligence when I call you on it.

Here you go again. Are you refusing to answer or are you incapable of answering?

No that was not my answer. Funny that you thought it was.

[SactoDoug]

No that was not my answer. Funny that you thought it was.

Silly of me to expect someone quoting my question and replying to be posting an answer to that same question.

Are you refusing to answer or are you incapable of answering?

Is there or is there not a need for LE to have FA weapons? If so, state clearly what that need is.

[TRICKSTER]

Silly of me to expect someone quoting my question and replying to be posting an answer to that same question.

Are you refusing to answer or are you incapable of answering?

[SactoDoug]

No that was not my answer. Funny that you thought it was.

[bigger hammer]

A bit late to the party. I think that those LEO's who can qualify with FA weapons ought to have them. In some situations they're useful and like CCW, better to have it and not need it ...

I know full well the problems they bring, I was certified as an MP-5 instructor and am certified to teach the patrol carbine in FA as well. Not every officer can handle them.

I'm not a fan of the 3 shot burst triggers, I don't want a gun to tell me how much I can shoot.

[five.five-six]

Only in stories such as Miami Vice does every single criminal have a fully-automatic MAC-10, an UZI, or an M16.

If you watch a show like Miami Vice you'd think that the average cop faces death four times each day and kills a dozen criminals each month and a cartel boss every few months, all while taking fire from 20-30 cartel soldiers and street gangsters armed with fully automatic weapons.


I have an inkling suspicion that less than 10 police have been killed by criminals armed with fully automatic weaponry during the last 10 years.

I watched Barny Miller, it's mostly drinking coffee, goofing off and writing reports.

[SVT-40]

A bit late to the party. I think that those LEO's who can qualify with FA weapons ought to have them. In some situations they're useful and like CCW, better to have it and not need it ...

I know full well the problems they bring, I was certified as an MP-5 instructor and am certified to teach the patrol carbine in FA as well. Not every officer can handle them.

I'm not a fan of the 3 shot burst triggers, I don't want a gun to tell me how much I can shoot.

Yup....

The 3 shot burst works okay on the HK rifles / sub guns, as they reset with each pull of the trigger. So you do get three shots if you hold the trigger down..

Not so with the Colt Commando or M-16 rifles... If you "blip" the trigger and get two shots off, the next time you pull the trigger you only get one shot....

When we trained with the FA firearms we always left them in FA, and used your trigger control to obtain three shot bursts....Or what ever number of rounds were necessary.

The best use of FA and short barreled shotguns is when doing entries and building searches or anywhere where a sudden violent encounter with a armed individual is probable.......

The compact nature and quick handling characteristics, as well as the ability to put concentrated and ACCURATE fire on a target are unmatched....

I carried and employed a FA Mp/5 during a entry of a Meth lab. The cooks had tied a pit bull inside the doorway, to attack anyone who entered...It attacked me after the door was breached. Three shots to it's head stopped it immediately...

So yes, FA firearms do have a purpose in law enforcement, just not for everyday patrol functions....

[Irv]

The only group I know for sure that carry FA are Nuclear Plant Security. They do have a military style armory and their training is more strenuous than SWAT.

[bigkyle72]

Agree 100% (with a little FIFY added for clarification). In other words, a NYC LEO could only have a mag capacity of 7; while a California LEO could only have a mag capacity of 10. California LEO's must use on-roster handguns, bullet buttons on their semi-auto rifles, etc.

So when **** goes down they are under gunned by criminals? Ya dumb.

[desrt2]

[hummveecop]

Having worked as a LEO, did we have rifles ? No. Many times I would have liked a bolt or lever gun, even a scoped .22 rifle. They all have their uses. I'd insist any agency have adequate training in rifle use, and for the most part KEEP THEM ON SEMI, unless ordered to lay down suppressive fire - on very rare occasions. IMO restrictions to civilians in mag capacity and type of weaponry should not apply to police. However any consideration for something new and unorthodox - the chief of police needs approval from the powers-that-be. The bottom line is lately the bad guys are better armed than the police. LE has the right to defend themselves and us and go home unharmed at the end of the day.

[CBR_rider]

.....
What are the thoughts of the pro and anti select fire groups?

Shotguns are great tools, and one that I believe is frequently under used. That being said, with a small training budget which is better: train on a rifle that can be used close quarters (or slung and transitioned to the handgun..) OR long range with one ammunition type versus training for shotgun including slug/buckshot and maybe on top of that a centerfire rifle?


As for this whole debate, the problem many posters are trying to argue two completely different issues at the same time: The ability (or lack thereof) for all citizens to have automatic weapons (and how unfair it is if law enforcement gets them but others do not..) and whether or not fully automatic weapons have some utility in a law enforcement setting. I think I can summarize my views thus: All citizens should have access to fully automatic weapons (provided they can legally possess firearms in the first place), and if law enforcement is trained to properly utilize automatic fire they should have access to it (SWAT, certain other tactical teams).