Does law Enforcement really need select fire?

[Untamed1972]

Not ALL citizens can own guns either. Right now any citizen that can legally own a gun can own a full auto. It is an individual choice not to own one.

As long as it is one of the now limited supply of pre-86 registered FA guns, have $10-25,000 to spare, AND they live in a state that doesn't otherwise ban ordinary citizens from owning them.

LE agencies, even in CA are not bound by such restrictions. They can buy brand new select fire rifles for under $2K each. That's hardly an apples to apples comparison.

[Johnny_Utah]

Yes, but non-SOT FFL holder citizens can only purchase/possess pre-1986 FA firearms. It should be the same rules for everyone, exemptions should not be given to civilian LE agencies.

I could not have said it better. Same rules apply to EVERYONE. I do not have a problem with police having access to these weapons.

[Josh3239]

So as far as I'm concerned, if the agency thinks they need them, then they need them.

That is quite the slippery slope.

[retiredAFcop]

NO domestic LEO agency has any need for select fire weaponry.

I don't even believe any officer outside of SWAT should be able to have centerfire rifles in their cruisers. It's completely ridiculous to see every single sheriff, CHP, and podunk agency running around with an AR15 and shotgun.

The police have become way too militarized.

A patrol rifle and shotgun add essential tools to the officer's toolbox. They have specific applications to specific situations, and that is why they are normally stowed (hopefully locked) in the vehicle or (in some cases) kept at the precinct/station.

Shotguns allow an officer (if properly supplied by their agency) to have a number of options in terms of ammunition choices. These range from slugs, to various sizes of shot, to less-lethal "bean bag" rounds.

While there have been cases were LEOs have effectively used handguns to take out threats at ranges of over 50 yards, that is not what handguns are designed for.

Shotguns tend to have some scatter, which makes precision targeting difficult.

A patrol rifle, which is often a carbine length gun chambered in either an intermediate power rifle cartridge or pistol cartridge, allows the officer to have increased accuracy at moderate range. The mini-14 used to be a fairly common patrol rifle, but the AR platform has become more common, and some agencies make other choices.

While I don't think that full auto or selective fire weapons have a place in the toolboxes of most civilian LEOs/LEAs, I see no problem with giving them tools that fit the jobs we have for them - which include being accurate when they do shoot, and being able to deploy less-lethal projectiles when the situation calls for it and allows it. This makes a patrol rifle and a shotgun good tools for many departments.

[Untamed1972]

A patrol rifle and shotgun add essential tools to the officer's toolbox. They have specific applications to specific situations, and that is why they are normally stowed (hopefully locked) in the vehicle or (in some cases) kept at the precinct/station.

Shotguns allow an officer (if properly supplied by their agency) to have a number of options in terms of ammunition choices. These range from slugs, to various sizes of shot, to less-lethal "bean bag" rounds.

While there have been cases were LEOs have effectively used handguns to take out threats at ranges of over 50 yards, that is not what handguns are designed for.

Shotguns tend to have some scatter, which makes precision targeting difficult.

A patrol rifle, which is often a carbine length gun chambered in either an intermediate power rifle cartridge or pistol cartridge, allows the officer to have increased accuracy at moderate range. The mini-14 used to be a fairly common patrol rifle, but the AR platform has become more common, and some agencies make other choices.

While I don't think that full auto or selective fire weapons have a place in the toolboxes of most civilian LEOs/LEAs, I see no problem with giving them tools that fit the jobs we have for them - which include being accurate when they do shoot, and being able to deploy less-lethal projectiles when the situation calls for it and allows it. This makes a patrol rifle and a shotgun good tools for many departments.

The problem then is just what if the guy holding the rifle is the tool?

[Untamed1972]

I think the basic point is that when an LEA has the ability to bring an overwhelming level of superior fire power and equipment to bear on it's citizens when it they feel like it.....then we are all in danger of crossing a line the founders were trying to prevent.

There needs to be a fine line in the balance of power that LE and citizens could bring to a fight. Knowing that balance exists is supposed to the deterrent to abuse of power. But when you know you can easily crush your opponent like a bug there is not much inducement to respect the law and the citizenry. As Ferguson shows, it is the natural reaction of those holding the power to bring it all to bear at the slightest provocation.

[epilepticninja]

OP, until you have been in their shoes, how can you even make a decision? You question is just as bad as why do people need 30 round magazines.

I have to agree 100% with you. And typically, only SWAT/SED gets the full-auto, everyone else uses semi-auto.

[IrishJoe3]

NO domestic LEO agency has any need for select fire weaponry.

I don't even believe any officer outside of SWAT should be able to have centerfire rifles in their cruisers. It's completely ridiculous to see every single sheriff, CHP, and podunk agency running around with an AR15 and shotgun.

The police have become way too militarized.

Yet the AR15 is the by far number one bought and sold rifle on the civilian market and Remington has sold MILLIONS of 870s since the 1970s.....explain how LEOs having access to those exact same firearms makes them militarized?

I would far rather a first one scene officer engage and stop a threat with a rifle then to spray and pray through all his handgun mags.

[Patrick Aherne]

It was a shotgun that finally ended the hollywood shoot out. If I recall. The cops were always semi auto.

No. It was full-auto fire from urban prone, underneath a car.

[Schutzman]

I think the basic point is that when an LEA has the ability to bring an overwhelming level of superior fire power and equipment to bear on it's citizens when it they feel like it.....then we are all in danger of crossing a line the founders were trying to prevent.

There needs to be a fine line in the balance of power that LE and citizens could bring to a fight. Knowing that balance exists is supposed to the deterrent to abuse of power. But when you know you can easily crush your opponent like a bug there is not much inducement to respect the law and the citizenry. As Ferguson shows, it is the natural reaction of those holding the power to bring it all to bear at the slightest provocation.

Great post

[retiredAFcop]

I would far rather a first one scene officer engage and stop a threat with a rifle then to spray and pray through all his handgun mags.

Exactly.

Use the right tool for the job. Have a couple of basic tools so you can use the one that works best for public safety.

[retiredAFcop]

The problem then is just what if the guy holding the rifle is the tool?

That's a recruitment, training, and retention issue. A simple patrol rifle or pump shotgun is not the problem.

[Ronin2]

urban prone, underneath a car.

To respond to the OP's question...does LE need select fire weapons? I would say it depends on the weapon and the user. Select fire sub guns used by SWAT officers? YES! Select fire RIFLES used by patrol or SWAT officers? NO!

[badinage]

of course they should have them

Questioning it is just childish jealousy. They are the professionals. Its a tool.

Are they all good? of course not. Are they all bad? of course not.

[barrage]

of course they should have them

Questioning it is just childish jealousy. They are the professionals. Its a tool.

Are they all good? of course not. Are they all bad? of course not.

I've got plenty of experience with weapons the local police could only dream about, even in their current paramilitary status. That being said, if you want to live in a police state where your local peace officers are literally equipped for war, by all means please get out of my country and find another one to live in, because the role the police are playing today will never be acceptable here.