Does law Enforcement really need select fire?

[KABA556]

OK, let's do that. I don't think that "commercial fisherman" should be allowed to use treble hooks. Single hooks should be good enough for them. Treble hooks give them an unfair advantage. "Lumberjacks" should not be allowed to use double bitted axes. Single bit axes are plenty enough. The trees don't stand a chance. Don't even get me started on chain saws! Ranchers should not be allowed to drive trucks. Their ancestors did it from horseback and that should be good enough for today's ranchers.

On a serious note, no one saying that LE is the most dangerous job, or that other jobs are not dangerous. But I can't think of another job (other than the military) where people are targeted by a large segment of the population just because they're in that profession. There aren't "fisherman killers, lumberjack killers, or rancher killers." But there are "cop killers."

If lumberjacks were going after criminals intending to bring them to court, there would be lumberjack killers. Very few people actually go out of their way to get into violent encounters with police. There are rare exceptions, but they are rare and they are exceptions.


Also, plenty of criminals go out of their way to target liquor store clerks, taxi cab drivers, convenience store clerks/owners.

I've never heard of anybody trying to rob a uniformed cop. I have heard of radicals and gang members that made a point to target uniformed police for violence, but even those incidents are rare.

[raitheslacker]

It's a very rare police department that can have 50 officers deploy to one incident. Last time I checked in CA, the average PD was only 11 officers.

One is not "armed" with "body armor."

Most departments will not have "sniper rifles, armored vehicles, [or] CS gas" available to the average patrol officer.

It's not so much a matter of being "outgunned." It's a matter of having the right tool for the job. Sometimes, that's a select fire AR type.



Nope sorry. "The public"

+1^

P.S.

Remember that bank robbery in LA where the two men had full auto AK's and was covered head to toe in body armor? A handful of cops only armed with shotguns and pistols didnt do squat. They actually had to acquire some ARs from a local gunstore to try and match the firepower of the threat to stop it.

In a deadly force situation anything goes. No such thing as a fair fight in that case.

[raitheslacker]

If lumberjacks were going after criminals intending to bring them to court, there would be lumberjack killers. Very few people actually go out of their way to get into violent encounters with police. There are rare exceptions, but they are rare and they are exceptions.


Also, plenty of criminals go out of their way to target liquor store clerks, taxi cab drivers, convenience store clerks/owners.

I've never heard of anybody trying to rob a uniformed cop. I have heard of radicals and gang members that made a point to target uniformed police for violence, but even those incidents are rare.

There was an agent in my agency that was targeted by cartel members while on duty. They ambushed him. Google Robert Rosas.

Believe it or not but criminals do counter intelligence on law enforcement. We've found gps tracking devices on agent's cars and some have been followed home after getting off work. One time we arrested someone that had a CD with a whole list of a PDs officers addresses etc.

[KABA556]

OK, let's do that. I don't think that "commercial fisherman" should be allowed to use treble hooks. Single hooks should be good enough for them. Treble hooks give them an unfair advantage. "Lumberjacks" should not be allowed to use double bitted axes. Single bit axes are plenty enough. The trees don't stand a chance. Don't even get me started on chain saws! Ranchers should not be allowed to drive trucks. Their ancestors did it from horseback and that should be good enough for today's ranchers.

On a serious note, no one saying that LE is the most dangerous job, or that other jobs are not dangerous. But I can't think of another job (other than the military) where people are targeted by a large segment of the population just because they're in that profession. There aren't "fisherman killers, lumberjack killers, or rancher killers." But there are "cop killers."

Also there are radicals who make a point to injure or kill lumberjacks because they believe lumberjacks are "killing the tree" and thus have to be stopped. Very rare, but they do exist. They're probably about as rare as people who go hunting for cops.

[TRICKSTER]

I have an answer to this post and others like it. Just because criminals use certain weapons does not mean LE should use those same weapons.

First, I don't believe that LE is "outgunned" even if they go up against criminals with FA weapons. LE get to choose when/if they respond. LE also chooses the amount of force used to respond. You can't argue that 50 officers armed with AR's body armor, sniper rifles, armored vehicles, CS gas and various other weapons is "outgunned" by one guy with a M16.

Criminals use various drugs during the commission of crimes. Should LE be drugged up on duty?

Criminals use explosives. Should LE be allowed to blow up criminals?

Criminals use poison. Is LE "outgunned" if they don't use poison?

Criminals use extortion and terrorism. Should LE be allowed to use those tactics?

Criminals use arson. Should LE be allowed to burn down buildings?

It comes down to justification. Since LE is supposed to be answerable to the public, they should have to justify everything they do and every dollar spent.

[TRICKSTER]

Your dismissive attitude towards the very real dangers faced by commercial fishermen is rather telling.

And so is your intentional distortion of the meaning of the quoted post.

[KABA556]

There was an agent in my agency that was targeted by cartel members while on duty. They ambushed him. Google Robert Rosas.

Believe it or not but criminals do counter intelligence on law enforcement. We've found gps tracking devices on agent's cars and some have been followed home after getting off work. One time we arrested someone that had a CD with a whole list of a PDs officers addresses etc.

The murder of Robert Rosas is an argument for border security to the point of building a wall, razor wire fences, and perhaps a minefield with observation towers every 300-500 meters.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/20005-border-patrol-agent-robert-wimer-rosas-jr

Border Patrol Agent Robert Rosas was shot and killed while on patrol near Campo, California, at approximately 9:15 pm. He was shot multiple times from ambush after exiting his patrol vehicle on the Shockey Truck Trail along the border.

A group of five armed men had traveled in Mexico to the U.S.-Mexico border with the intent of robbing a Border Patrol agent. Three of the men crossed into the United States while the remaining two men remained in Mexico to act as lookouts.

The three men who crossed into the United States setup and ambush and lured Agent Rosas out of his vehicle. He was shot multiple times before the men robbed him of his gear bag, handcuffs, firearm, and night vision goggles.




He was ambushed by five men who were looking for a border patrol agent. A select-fire or fully-automatic M4 style rifle would not have helped him.

His death might very well have been prevented by tight border security but enhanced weaponry on his part would not have helped.


In 2003 a group of Mexican army soldiers in the employ of a cartel used a mounted .50 caliber M2 to shred the mobile home of a rancher along the border who had reported their drug trafficking activities. How can a citizen effectively fight back against a squad sized element using a mounted M2 Browning?

[desrt2]

Ad hominem argument.
Don't attack me. You don't know me.
This is a great discussion, especially about perception.
No, I'm not butt-hurt. Just stay on track.

You know, I bet if the OP was LE, he/she wouldn't be whining about whether or not they have select fire.

honestly your proposed questions are just as sickening as when a dem says

"do you really need 30 round clip magazine death devices"?
"do you really need an ar-15 evil black rifle"?

they have a job to do like anyone else. Except theirs involves them putting their lives on the line DAILY. so who are you to question what they use for self defense? furthermore, select fire is just that, selective; not every officer is going to go scarface every chance they get.

Does that mean it won't happen? never say never...but that applies to everything.

[SactoDoug]

It's a very rare police department that can have 50 officers deploy to one incident. Last time I checked in CA, the average PD was only 11 officers.

One is not "armed" with "body armor."

Most departments will not have "sniper rifles, armored vehicles, [or] CS gas" available to the average patrol officer.

It's not so much a matter of being "outgunned." It's a matter of having the right tool for the job. Sometimes, that's a select fire AR type.

So any LE organization cannot request assistance from neighboring organizations, or the next higher level? 11 may be the average, but that ignores what actually happens. In the recent example of the Roseville incident, there was LE from neighboring counties, state and federal level.

So yes, my statement is accurate that LE has all of those things at their disposal.

Also, you ignored my major point that LE gets to choose when/if they respond and the amount of force that they will use to respond with. Back to the Roseville example, there were dozens of officers on hand for a single guy with a pistol.

Nope sorry. "The public"

[Patrick Aherne]

I feel that there are way too many select fire weapons possessed by LE - and oddball LE agencies like Social Security Administration, USDA, Department of Education - when there are so few real-world scenarios that call for them.

And there's your problem, your feelings. I don't have a need for full-auto on patrol. I don't want the officers I supervise or train spraying rounds, endangering the public. However, that does not mean that there is no situation, ever, that my department might encounter where full-auto might be needed. I can see the need for full-auto machine carbines, like MP5s, on protective details. I also see a need for belt-fed light machine guns when it comes to closing down an airport or stopping something like a vehicle-borne suicide bomb. However, my agency doesn't have and airport. or helicopter so the question is moot. Should LAPD, LASD,SFPD, SJPD have these available? Absolutely.

[Patrick Aherne]

Also there are radicals who make a point to injure or kill lumberjacks because they believe lumberjacks are "killing the tree" and thus have to be stopped. Very rare, but they do exist. They're probably about as rare as people who go hunting for cops.

Believe it or not, there are cops that go looking for those people that would hurt lumberjacks, or the people who own the companies that pay the lumberjacks. You can ask me how I know this, but I can't tell you.

[KABA556]

Believe it or not, there are cops that go looking for those people that would hurt lumberjacks, or the people who own the companies that pay the lumberjacks. You can ask me how I know this, but I can't tell you.

That's okay agent 86, I wasn't going to ask you.

[KABA556]

I feel that there are way too many select fire weapons possessed by LE - and oddball LE agencies like Social Security Administration, USDA, Department of Education - when there are so few real-world scenarios that call for them.

And there's your problem, your feelings. I don't have a need for full-auto on patrol. I don't want the officers I supervise or train spraying rounds, endangering the public. However, that does not mean that there is no situation, ever, that my department might encounter where full-auto might be needed. I can see the need for full-auto machine carbines, like MP5s, on protective details. I also see a need for belt-fed light machine guns when it comes to closing down an airport or stopping something like a vehicle-borne suicide bomb. However, my agency doesn't have and airport. or helicopter so the question is moot. Should LAPD, LASD,SFPD, SJPD have these available? Absolutely.

There was a documentary about small arms weapon designs capable of stopping a suicide bombing vehicle along the lines of the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon and what sort of weapon it would take to stop the vehicle without doubt.

They had a remotely operated truck with the assumption that the driver would keep his foot on the gas even if dead and that the bomb inside could be triggered remotely by an accomplice outside of the vehicle. The idea being that they absolutely must stop the vehicle, physically stop the vehicle.

They were unable to stop the vehicle with anything short of a Browning M2 although a LAW managed to stop a vehicle. Even an M240 and an M60 still were unable to cause sufficient instant damage to instantly bring the vehicle to a halt in its tracks. They caused extensive damage that would have resulted in the vehicle coming to a halt within less than a mile, but the vehicle was only about 300 meters from the target at that point. Only the M2 and the LAW stopped the vehicle in seconds...


Of course not every sentry has access to a mounted M2 Browning and a LAW takes a few key seconds to prepare and aim, and if you miss you don't get a quick follow-up shot.


They then tested a new raise/lower vehicle barrier and the result was similar to how this barrier in this video performs-




Protecting a fixed location from a vehicle-borne IED is best done with barriers as opposed to belt-fed weapons or explosive weapons.

[Mr. Nobody]

Do the police need NFA forms on all their Title II firearms?

I thought they did.

I live in LA, and I have never seen a rifle in a patrol car. One time I saw an AR15, I know cause I looked through the window at it.

I remember reading that the pussies at city hall or somewhere were offended by the sight of rifles in patrol cars. Maybe they are in the trunk.

I also live across from a military installation, and DOD police have Colt M16A2's exactly like the one I used in the military.

Either way, the PD doesn't seem to need any more help spraying lead at people/cars/objects/dogs or whatever.

Remember those two Asian mail carrier ladies? That was down the street from here.
Look at the damage those knuckleheads did with semi auto...

Can you link us to what happened with the Asian mail carrier using semi auto gun ? I can't find the article or video

[Artema]

Protecting a fixed location from a vehicle-borne IED is best done with barriers as opposed to belt-fed weapons or explosive weapons.

Yep. That's why all the Air Force bases I've seen have those giant steel rods that raise up out of the ground. Similar thing happens to vehicles that hit them, except the cut it into pieces too.