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**samsigsauer** · 10-29-2013, 9:50 PM

I think blaming the officers is off base, you need to blame the People holding elected office. They are the ones making laws such as Leland Yee. People who are in office of power. They are the law and policy makers, not the officers. Also ultimately it is the DA office who prosecutes and enforces the law of the land. Take a look at another voter placed person such as Kamala Harris the Attorney General. She is the one who placed and is enforcing the stupid law for microstamping. Will you blame the officers for this or Attorney General?

Those who believe that the police were the problem in Katrina remember it was the New Orleans Police Superintendent... From Wikipedia "Controversy arose over a September 8 city-wide order by New Orleans Police Superintendent Eddie Compass to local police, U.S. Army National Guard soldiers, and Deputy U.S. Marshals to confiscate all civilian-held firearms. "No one will be able to be armed," Compass said. "Guns will be taken. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns."

Officers should not have followed those orders. It was orders from above. It was a public official who did the order. Remember police chiefs can be hired and fired quickly, whereas Sheriff's are elected. Most Sheriff's will have less political pressure, whereas the Chiefs of Police have to follow the orders of the mayor or city council.

Many statements lot officers all into one, it would be the same as pooling all of us on Calguns as people on the fringe...Such as http://www.sacbee.com/2013/10/29/586...reatening.html

**Bobby Ricigliano** · 10-30-2013, 8:57 AM

Anything that starts with "Why does _______ need _______?

reeks of closet self loathing anti gun sentiment.

I am not interested in limiting anyone from having what they feel they want or need for their given purpose. That includes Mil,LE, or private citizens. Everything should be conditional on safe and reasonable use of the tools, not someone's else's delicate sensibilities or arbitrary decision on what they feel is needed.

Oh and by the way, most LE folks have zero access to any full/select fire weapons. Those that do are 100% liable for every errant round throwndown range and are trained accordingly.

**Artema** · 10-30-2013, 9:07 AM

Originally posted by Bobby Ricigliano

Anything that starts with "Why does _______ need _______?

reeks of closet self loathing anti gun sentiment.

I am not interested in limiting anyone from having what they feel they want or need for their given purpose. That includes Mil,LE, or private citizens. Everything should be conditional on safe and reasonable use of the tools, not someone's else's delicate sensibilities or arbitrary decision on what they feel is needed.

Oh and by the way, most LE folks have zero access to any full/select fire weapons. Those that do are 100% liable for every errant round throwndown range and are trained accordingly.

There is a difference. If you advocate for a group of citizens to have access, where others do not, I have a problem with that. If you think LE should have something, then advocate for Americans to have it, not an elite group of Americans.

**diverwcw** · 10-30-2013, 9:13 AM

When did this happen

See the attachment. It says quite a bit

Attached Files

a12.jpg (65.6 KB, 39 views)

**KABA556** · 10-30-2013, 9:22 AM

Originally posted by Bobby Ricigliano

Oh and by the way, most LE folks have zero access to any full/select fire weapons. Those that do are 100% liable for every errant round throwndown range and are trained accordingly.

So the cops who shot that 75 year old woman and her daughter in the back with an AR-15 have been charged accordingly? Are they on their way to prison for attempted murder?

If I thought that somebody was Dorner and I opened fire on their vehicle, striking them in the back with a .223 from my AR-15, I would almost certainly be in state prison for anywhere from 5-15 years for a laundry list of charges. I certainly wouldn't be back at my job the next day as though never ever happened.

The police who shot that woman and her daughter as they were driving around delivering newspapers should be indicted for aggravated assault, assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, etc.

We're at a point where cops could fire a 40mm grenade into a school bus filled with children and then shout "NATIONAL SECURITY!" "OFFICER SAFETY!" "QUALIFIED IMMUNITY" and the next of kin would have to struggle to get them charged with assault, let alone first degree murder or even second degree murder.

A cop could fire an AT-4 at a school bus and wind up suspended with pay during the investigation and perhaps do 2-3 years for assault and reckless endangerment, meanwhile a half-dozen kids are dead or maimed.

**IrishJoe3** · 10-30-2013, 9:27 AM

Originally posted by diverwcw

See the attachment. It says quite a bit

All the patrol cops I see look just like the left picture you posted. What was your point?

**Dr.Lou** · 10-30-2013, 10:38 AM

As chief, I never saw the need for or issued select fire rifles...but that's just me. However, I firmly believe that patrol officers need a patrol rifle. I always issued AR15s. One department had select fire M16s that we received through the DRMO program 10-15 years ago - had a reserve officer that was also the Army reserve Colonel in charge of the DRMO in our area. He also got the local sheriff's dept. an APC for their swat team, which was shared with a neighboring county.

Anybody remember the North Hollywood bank robbery? Doesn't happen very often, but it's sure nice to have the firepower when you need it. Saves cops from having to run to their LGS and grab a few rifles to level the playing field.

**KABA556** · 10-30-2013, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Dr.Lou

As chief, I never saw the need for or issued select fire rifles...but that's just me. However, I firmly believe that patrol officers need a patrol rifle. I always issued AR15s. One department had select fire M16s that we received through the DRMO program 10-15 years ago - had a reserve officer that was also the Army reserve Colonel in charge of the DRMO in our area. He also got the local sheriff's dept. an APC for their swat team, which was shared with a neighboring county.

Anybody remember the North Hollywood bank robbery? Doesn't happen very often, but it's sure nice to have the firepower when you need it. Saves cops from having to run to their LGS and grab a few rifles to level the playing field.

If I am not mistaken the LAPD never paid for the rifles they took from the gun store and they did not return the rifles... Even if they did return the rifles, they would have been scratched, dinged, etc, the store would not be able to sell them as new.

What did it take for a citizen to buy an AR-15 in California in 1997? The store owner should have had the police submit to the same paperwork other citizens had to submit to. I certainly would not release a single rifle or a single round of ammunition without being paid.

Did not one of the officers tell the store owner to "send the bill to the city" well we all know how that works...

Anybody who has ever had to get a local government to pay them, oh boy...

Now when the city decides you owe them money, that is an entirely different game.

**Dr.Lou** · 10-30-2013, 11:10 AM

Not sure how the payment/nonpayment worked out, I just know they procured ARs from a local LGS to help level the playing field. I know he got spanked for doing it, when he should have received a commendation. It always reminds of Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge when he had to fill out paper work for night vision goggles he felt his men should have already been issued. He referred to the drill as a "clusterphuck."

I'll have to ask one of partners, he's a retired LAPD sgt that was on duty that day - he was working in the valley supervising a car theft task force and wasn't involved in the incident; his wife was the chief's admin assistant and has all the dirt.

**morfeeis** · 10-30-2013, 11:13 AM

They shouldn't have anything i cant walk into my local gun shop and buy.

**SactoDoug** · 10-30-2013, 11:19 AM

No one is saying LE should not have rifles. They should. The North Hollywood bank robbery showed the need. They should not be limited to pistols and shot guns.

It is a big leap going from rifle to machine gun.

**KABA556** · 10-30-2013, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by SactoDoug

No one is saying LE should not have rifles. They should. The North Hollywood bank robbery showed the need. They should not be limited to pistols and shot guns.

It is a big leap going from rifle to machine gun.

Actually I'll say it...

One incident in 50 years of policing in LA and they want to issue AR-15s and M4s to the basic LAPD patrolmen?

LAPD has killed or maimed more innocent citizens/civilians in the last 10 years with rifles than LAPD officers have died in the last 50 years from being in a shoot-out and lacking a rifle.

Hell, LAPD wounded at least four or five people in this Dorner manhunt.

Also, rifles are expensive... For the cost of a rifle they could probably buy three or four shotguns. By the time they load up the rifle with accessories they could have five shotguns and a two or three pistols.

I don't believe city police really need rifles.

My dad's hometown of about 12,000 people with perhaps one murder in 20-25 years has a SWAT team which possess an M113 APC... Can there be any possible justification or rationale for any of that?

**Artema** · 10-30-2013, 12:48 PM

They may go overboard with M4s, but they should still be able to have them. I see a trend to spend spend spend like you're saying.

**Bobby Ricigliano** · 10-30-2013, 12:55 PM

I want to hear more from the Calgunner who said that one guy (presumably him) could have stopped the North Hollywood shootout singlehandedly with a deer rifle from high ground.

I am drowning in all the tactical expertise here, even though it is mostly based on movies and video games.

I don't want to deny patrol guys the tools they need, nor do I want to deny Joe Citizen his AR, even if he has no real use for it other than photo shoots and impressing his girlfriend and buddies with it during get togethers.

**IrishJoe3** · 10-30-2013, 2:05 PM

So much FUD….