Since when is riveting mags to 10rd OK?

[PonchoTA]

Quick question for the gurus:

I have several pre-ban magazines, for both AK's and AR's, 20 and 30 round capacities. In what occasion can I still use them here? In a non-pistol-grip configuration? Or is there NO occasion that I can use them here, they are just not illegal for me to own and I can use them out of state?

I'm confused now!

[Peashooter]

This is just splitting hairs.

You think that if the floor plate is welded? That a quick pass of a dremel wouldn't take care of that?

The fact of the matter is that it does comply with the law of restricting the mag to 10 rounds.
You could fill the entire thing up with epoxy/solid lead/ steel whatever?
If you intend to not comply with the law you will find a way to defeat it if that is your intent.

I would go so far as to say you could not show me a scenario where I could not have the ability to bring it back to a condition of a 30 round capacity.
Other than melting it down, folding it,crushing the lower half and/or completely destroying the body.
Access to tools ,time and determination is pretty hard to defeat.



JMHO

[yellowfin]

Can we weld, epoxy, or rivet legislators' mouths and/or keyboards shut to prevent them from voting or writing bills more than 10 times?

[Clodbuster]

10rd Beretta 92F factory magazines have a pinched side channel that does not run the full length of the mag body to limit capacity that could be easily cut or grinded out without destroy the mag body. All the other parts are identical to the regular capacity mags.


Clod

I agree with TheDrickel that it's best to err on the side of caution, and I don't like some of the "reduced-to-10/looks-like-30" mags out there.

HOWEVER, it appears the DOJ has approved some pistols for sale in California with magazine tubes that have a "pinch" in them for 10 round restriction. I think this could well be useful in any defense, I'm trying to figure out which brands/factory mags are this way.

[Addax]

That is what we are currently working on.

Even tabbed in C Products 10/30 magazines could in essense be reversed into a full 30 round magazine in the right hands.

What I am currently working on is setting up a 10/30 magazine so that if someone were to try and revert the magazine back into a 30 rnd mag. that it will destroy or damage beyond the point of functionality one or multiple parts of the magazine, so what you are left with is a disassembled pile of magazine parts, in which some or all of the parts will not work anymore (even if repair is attempted).

This is going to be a long project, since I am working with some folks on this and trying/testing out different ideas.

I would go so far as to say you could not show me a scenario where I could not have the ability to bring it back to a condition of a 30 round capacity.
Other than melting it down, folding it,crushing the lower half and/or completely destroying the body.
Access to tools ,time and determination is pretty hard to defeat.



JMHO

[Clodbuster]

If gun mfgs, are not going through this level of "permenance", and are selling hundreds / if not thousands of magazines here with no one being sent to prison, why are you going out of the way to do it?

Clod

That is what we are currently working on.

Even tabbed in C Products 10/30 magazines could in essense be reversed into a full 30 round magazine in the right hands.

What I currently working on is setting up a 10/30 magazine so that if someone were to try and revert the magazine back into a 30 rnd mag. that it will destroy or damage beyond the point of functionality one or multiple parts of the magazine, so what you are left with is a disassembled pile of magazine parts.

[deleted by PC police]

If gun mfgs, are not going through this level of "permenance", and are selling hundreds / if not thousands of magazines here with no one being sent to prison, why are you going out of the way to do it?

Clod

I was wondering the same thing. I personally would prefer the option of being able to modify my magazines if the SHTF.

[Addax]

Good Question.

There is a market for those who want a 10 round magazine in a 30 round body.

Most of the Magazines mfg's I spoke to out of state don't want to spend the time to mfg. a permanent solution for California since, since it costs them time and $$.

Cproduct, DH etc. can and do make a 10/30 AR mag for CA, by crimping the mag body, and this is a workable solution, but there is a chance that someone with enough determination and the right tools can revert the magazine back to a functioning 30 round magazine with little or no damage to the magazine.

There are some set solutions in place already that some vendors have rolled out (welded magazines with magazine plugs), but you are limited to using steel magazines if you want to permanently weld up the mag once you install a plug into the body eliminating travel for the follower past 10 rounds.

Welding a steel magazine is not too difficult to do with the right tools and know how, but you cannot weld or stamp plastic / aluminum without damage.

Same with a rivet conversion, you can drill out the rivet and you pretty much have a functioning 30 round mag.

I know that that nobody has been tagged (as far as I know) for owning a 10/30 mag, even a riveted one.

What if you are the range, and a CAL DOJ-BOF guy walks up and is able to defeat a rivet mag conversion by forcing a 11th round into the 10/30 magazine?

What if they take a crimped 10/30 ar magazine and can revert the mag back to a 30 round magazine.

Since I was able to defeat several of the rivet 10/30 mag conversions with my own hands (forcing an 11th round into the magazine) I thought that there has to be a better and more permanent way to set up a 10/30 magazine.

Glues and Epoxies on plastic magazines can be removed by someone determined enough to do it, without damaging or just slightly damaging the magazine parts, but they would still be able to function.

If gun mfgs, are not going through this level of "permenance", and are selling hundreds / if not thousands of magazines here with no one being sent to prison, why are you going out of the way to do it?

Clod

[Addax]

I would also like that option to legally own a magazine that I can revert back to a 30 round magazine, but I am looking at this strictly from a 10 round magazine -10/30 mag permanence and legal angle.

It is just a safety net for both the vendor and the customer.

I was wondering the same thing. I personally would prefer the option of being able to modify my magazines if the SHTF.

[Addax]

This is one way to make sure a magazine is modified with permanence in mind.

I am working on taking this level of permanence and adding another layer just to be safe.

As a business owner, I want to eliminate as much risk of legal concerns and issues as I can for both myself and my customers.

I too dont trust rivets or small pieces of metal.

When I was selling my 10/30 5.45 mags, each one had a wooden block epoxied to the mag body, the spring was cut, and the floorplate was epoxied on. Since I cannot weld plastic, I thought this was the only way to permanently modify them. I stand by my work.

[hoffmang]

Now the good news is, as Gene pointed out, the DOJ tried to say that our ARs were illegal unless the magazines were permanently fixed into the rifle, say with a rivet. So by their logic if riveting a magazine to the rifle is permanent, then riveting the magazine might also too be permanent. However, this justification was pulled from a failed attempt to amend the California Code of Regulations, which means it has no real legal basis. It would only be used in your court case to try and prove what the DOJ was thinking at the time, which was two years ago.

Expect some news on this front that is quite a bit more binding than a failed rulemaking. For now I'm pointing out the path. Do note that you need some epoxy with that rivet...

-Gene

[edwardm]

How do you figure that makes a difference in terms of 'permanence'? Epoxy will kneel before the might of a drill bit more easily than a rivet. And both? That's like the 1-screw or 2-screw debate over the Prince-50 kit.

I'm not seeing any legal argument evolving here, yet.

Expect some news on this front that is quite a bit more binding than a failed rulemaking. For now I'm pointing out the path. Do note that you need some epoxy with that rivet...

-Gene

[Jicko]

1) rivet method - since there isn't a test case out there.... it is all about YMMV....

2) making it yourself is one thing..... BUYING it from some vendor is another... altho ignorant may not be your best defence in court... yet, if you are buying some publicly available, advertised, 10 rounds magazines then you are *pretty* safe.... IMHO....

[tenpercentfirearms]

Well I have factory produced, tabbed C Products 10/20 magazines in stock for any of you afraid of rivets.

http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10_47&products_id=523

[hoffmang]

How do you figure that makes a difference in terms of 'permanence'? Epoxy will kneel before the might of a drill bit more easily than a rivet. And both? That's like the 1-screw or 2-screw debate over the Prince-50 kit.

I'm not seeing any legal argument evolving here, yet.

Let me point you to a DOJ BoF opinion that will have extra credence soon:

(3) A firearm is not readily modifiable to receive a detachable magazine if, for example:

(B) the magazine is fixed to the receiver by a continuous ribbon of welding around the perimeter of the magazine well, or by multiple ribbons of welding that are each at least one half inch in length;
(C) the magazine is fixed to the receiver with a rivet (or other irreversible locking device) that is driven through the magazine well and fixed in place with epoxy; or....

From: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/200...edtextnov1.pdf

If that was good enough to create a permanent altered firearm, isn't that enough to satisfy:

(d) The following definitions shall apply under this section:
(1) "Magazine" shall mean any ammunition feeding device.
(2) "Capacity to accept more than 10 rounds" shall mean capable of
accommodating more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include a feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it
cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

Note that I'm going to be able to share more support for this position soon.

-Gene