Put up or shut-up...

[grammaton76]

In '78 I trained a Marine reservist how to drive big rig trucks. Can you imagine going thru Marine boot camp with the name of...........John Wayne.

Back at mp3.com, we had a developer with us named Chuck Norris. He later went on to work at Napster.

[Chappy]

I obviously have some strong opinions about training. I think if you are going to own firearms for defense, you owe it to those you are defending to gain and maintain a level of proficency in fighting with them. If you think you are up to speed, good on ya; have fun. I will still enjoy chatting about guns and stuff with you.

I am not training up to fight the hordes of zombies some think are comming; I train with the weapons I am going to have at a fight (most likely in my home): A pistol and a rifle. The training at Tactical Response is designed to give you a fundemental grasp of the weapon and how to teach yourself to fight with it. We are not a "shooting" school. We teach people to defend themselves with firearms. If you feel you are already suffecently proficent in the areas the mindset, tactics and skill to prevail in a fight for your family's life, good deal. Don't come to our classes. If you want to gain some exposure to mindset and skills that you can build on or add to your tool box, we look forward to seeing you there.

In the end, losers train until they get it right; warriors train until they can't get it wrong.

[BigAL]

Back at mp3.com, we had a developer with us named Chuck Norris. He later went on to work at Napster.

He should have round house kicked the Metallica drummer in the face.

[grammaton76]

He should have round house kicked the Metallica drummer in the face.

Unfortunately, he signed on long after all the lawsuits had succeeded. I still think the judge was being paid off by the MPAA...

[treelogger]

The course looks like something I would be interested in...but it seems useless until the lowers are listed. Tactical training with fixed mags or no grips?

Yes, USE A DIFFERENT CARBINE. Also, they have AR's to rent. Being from out of state they can bring them here to train

My first question is a purely technical one. What is the point of training with one type of firearm (in this case, a rented AR with detachable magazines), if in any real-life situation I will have to use a different type of firearm (fixed mag AR, or M1/M1A, or Mini-14, or whatever I might have at my disposal)? Are we trying to train people to deal with tactical situations with the tools at their disposal, or are we giving people a 2-day wild ride where they can act out their movie hero fantasies? If it is the latter, I would propose that instead of handguns and ARs we use paintball markers; they are even more fun. To summarize, I think such a course is only sensible if you bring your own tactical guns, or rent nearly identical models (for example, I could see renting a H&K USP in caliber .40S&W even though I use one in .45ACP for my tactical setup, but training on a Glock and then using a Sig or H&K would be insane).

The second question is on a more fundamental level. Let's exclude law enforcement, military training, and security contractors (such as the ones now taking jobs in Iraq), and concentrate on the tactical training that benefits a gun owner and shooter in an otherwise normal civilian life. I think that an assault-style or battlefield-style rifle (such as AR, M1...) is a tactical tool that is of no interest to the civilian shooter. There are only a few situations in which a civilian can use deadly force; one is in defense of themselves and their family in their household (where a handgun or a shotgun are more suitable than a rifle), the other being when carrying a handgun. I can see no situation in which a civilian might use a rifle such as these for tactical purposes. To begin with, one never carries such rifles when moving about. And for defense within the household or the immediate vicinity, it seems to me that a shotgun is far superior.

Another question is whether this course is intended to help prepare people for 3-gun IPSC/PPC/USPSA/... matches. Judging by the description and discussion, it is not.

So that brings up the question of the whole purpose of the course. Judging by the description, it teaches group assault and defense techniques. Those are suitable for a battlefield or a SWAT team, but useless otherwise. Which makes me think that the real purpose is not to teach tactical skills, but to provide a weekend of fun and an outlet for the above-mentioned movie hero aspirations.

Did I miss something, or is this a correct evaluation?

BTW, I have taken a 2-day tactical pistol class from AWT (Walt Marshall and gang); I consider it 20% useful, 80% waste of time on skills that will never be used. But because of the 20% useful part, I'm planning to eventually retake that class when they offer it with a night-shoot (with Surefire lights), and maybe even take a similar tactical shotgun class, targeted towards training for HD.

[bear308]

AR's can be rented from Tactical Response, since they are from out of state, they can bring them to Kali for the purpose of training.

Mace

Did I miss something? Why are they able to bring AW's into the state?

[Chappy]

Did I miss something? Why are they able to bring AW's into the state?

It is legal for a non-resident to bring a AW into CA for the purposes of competition. There is a competition involved in the course.

[glen avon]

I would like to point out that Mace Windu has either thick skin or a great sense of humor. this thread could have turned ugly but he was a good sport.

[Chappy]

My first question is a purely technical one. What is the point of training with one type of firearm (in this case, a rented AR with detachable magazines), if in any real-life situation I will have to use a different type of firearm (fixed mag AR, or M1/M1A, or Mini-14, or whatever I might have at my disposal)?

I firmly believe you should use the rifle in training you will be using to fight. The rental rifles are for folks who do not have a rifle, but want to learn the skills; or for those who for whatever reason cannot bring their personal rifle.

The second question is on a more fundamental level. Let's exclude law enforcement, military training, and security contractors (such as the ones now taking jobs in Iraq), and concentrate on the tactical training that benefits a gun owner and shooter in an otherwise normal civilian life. I think that an assault-style or battlefield-style rifle (such as AR, M1...) is a tactical tool that is of no interest to the civilian shooter.

I disagree. If you know you are going to a gunfight, take a rifle. Anything else is silly. Rifles make the perfect home defense gun on several levels. The .223 55gr round penetrates less in interior walls than a handgun round or shotshell pellets (yes, I can prove that). The .223 is a fight stopper....period. A grown man holding a 16" AR or 18" M1A is extended no further than a grown man holding a handgun out at arms distance to fire. Why not take a fight stopper to a gunfight, especcially one in your house.

There are only a few situations in which a civilian can use deadly force; one is in defense of themselves and their family in their household (where a handgun or a shotgun are more suitable than a rifle), the other being when carrying a handgun.

See above. The rifle is FAR superior to the handgun OR the shotgun for home defense.

And for defense within the household or the immediate vicinity, it seems to me that a shotgun is far superior.

See above

Another question is whether this course is intended to help prepare people for 3-gun IPSC/PPC/USPSA/... matches. Judging by the description and discussion, it is not.

You are correct, we are not gamers.

So that brings up the question of the whole purpose of the course. Judging by the description, it teaches group assault and defense techniques. Those are suitable for a battlefield or a SWAT team, but useless otherwise. Which makes me think that the real purpose is not to teach tactical skills, but to provide a weekend of fun and an outlet for the above-mentioned movie hero aspirations.

No more than mountain climbing or sport parachutting are outlets for "movie hero aspirations". There is no need to paint people who enjoy shooting or training as wanabees or rambos.....thats how non-gun owners would like to describe you.

To each his own. If you don't think training is for you, fine. There is no need to belittle those who choose to practice a "non-traditional" martial art (gunfighting IS a martial art). Something to think about.

[Chappy]

I would like to point out that Mace Windu has either thick skin or a great sense of humor. this thread could have turned ugly but he was a good sport.

Having known Mace for a long time, I can say he has both.

[bear308]

It is legal for a non-resident to bring a AW into CA for the purposes of competition. There is a competition involved in the course.

nevermind, I just read the 06 Gun Laws book and saw that it now says for the purpose of shooting targets. I could have sworn it used to say something like "competion in a match sanctioned by a club or organization with the purpose of promoting gun safety".

Good to know.

[natrab]

Hey Chappy, on a sidenote, are you from the Santa Cruz/Monterey area? Where do you shoot around here?

[MaceWindu]

I would like to point out that Mace Windu has either thick skin or a great sense of humor. this thread could have turned ugly but he was a good sport.

Thick skin, fellow shooter...thick skin. The original "Put up or shut up..." was a statement to get you shooters to step up to the plate and get some quality training. If so, great. If not, and you think you are squared away with your carbine, good for you.

I hang out with like minded individuals and I have been trained by some VERY squared away men. But, I am of the mindset that training is not a destination, but a continuous journey. I hope to see you there.

Mace

[MaceWindu]

Do you expect to do this type of warfare in civilian life? In the Marines everyone was expected to know this stuff and do it if needed, but what scenario do you expect to have to "assault a hostile position" in the civilian world? After reading the review and looking at the pictures, it looks like a thrill camp for Rambo types.

No Sir. This class was Advenced Fighting Rifle. The basis of the advanced class was the ability to improvise in a given situation. Team communcation, unity. I have made some VERY good friends in these class.

The basis of Tactical Response is not just shooting, but a fighting mindset, which is more important.

Mace

[jessegpresley]

I like shooting at paper targets and clay pigeons with friends. I'm not looking to become a ninja, operator or wet boy. If some people want to prepare for the "next civil war", zombie invasion or SHTF situations, good for them. I think there's room for both here.

I hear there's a shortage of Navy SEALs. They train you and pay you for it. Sounds like a good deal for some range commandos on these forums who can never get enough tactical training.