AK Underfolder

[JHC]

Are you not afraid of your gun stabbing you to death if you shoot it with the stock folded??

Nah, When the stock is folded I just spray-fire from the hip

[jumbopanda]

Just wanted to mention that whatever you use to comply with the 30" CA law does not have to be permanent. The federal laws (16" barrel and 26" OAL) require that any attachments be permanent, but if you meet these two requirements and your OAL is less than 30", you can screw on a long brake or fake suppressor and you are good to go.

[RossRinSD]

this sucks...

just measured that an AK underfolder is only 25.25 inches when folded.

The only way (that will work for me) to finish my build is to permanently attach a fake supressor.

Can I drill a hole in the supressor, hold that pin on the FSB back with scotch tape or whatever, screw the supressor all the way on, then pull out or dissolve the scotch tape to release the pin and hold the supressor????

I don't have access to silver solder or want to risk damaging the finish or barrel.

[redcliff]

this sucks...

just measured that an AK underfolder is only 25.25 inches when folded.

The only way (that will work for me) to finish my build is to permanently attach a fake supressor.

Can I drill a hole in the supressor, hold that pin on the FSB back with scotch tape or whatever, screw the supressor all the way on, then pull out or dissolve the scotch tape to release the pin and hold the supressor????

I don't have access to silver solder or want to risk damaging the finish or barrel.

Why do you have to permanently attach the fake suppressor? Isn't your barrel already 16"? I'm not aware of any requirement that what you do to make your rifle 30" with the stock folded has to be permement, as long as your barrel is at least permanently 16". Remember, the Federal requirement for 26" is with the stock EXTENDED. And the stock does not have to be permanently attached, or no UZI folding or fixed stock,or folding stock AK47 could of been imported. I believe requiring a tool to remove the buttstock is sufficient.

[RossRinSD]

Yes, the stock Romy G barrel is 16 inches with no brake.

so, the feds measure with the stock open? And, it has to be 26 inches

and

CA measures with the stock folded and it has to 30 inches, but isn't required to be permanently fixed?


Just want to ask this one again...

The feds measure with an open stock even if the rifle can fire in a folded state????????

[redcliff]

Does this help?

"I had submitted a question to the BATF regarding the legality of attaching a folding stock to a pistol with a 16" barrel. I had in mind a Thompson Encore 15" .30-06 w/permanently attached muzzle break (for 16" total). I thought the response was interesting and would be appreciated by the many Encore/Contender enthusiasts who have grappled with the legal ramifications of reconfiguration:

-------------------------------

Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.
In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"

[Xerxes]

Why do you have to permanently attach the fake suppressor? Isn't your barrel already 16"? I'm not aware of any requirement that what you do to make your rifle 30" with the stock folded has to be permement, as long as your barrel is at least permanently 16". Remember, the Federal requirement for 26" is with the stock EXTENDED. And the stock does not have to be permanently attached, or no UZI folding or fixed stock,or folding stock AK47 could of been imported. I believe requiring a tool to remove the buttstock is sufficient.

FIRST as pointed out in the other post federal law is measured with stock folded or with stock removed if with an easily removable stock.

Second the CA law before 1993 did not say meaured with stock folded, but neither did it mention with stock open thus left an opening for an antigun court to make case law.

I am worried because the situation is similar in that I see no where that an easily removable barrel device is or is not counted towards the 26" or the later 30" overall length requirement.

We learned through our fine public school education in the 2nd grade that history has a way of repeating itself and the gun grabbers using the federal definition of easily removable butt stock also meaning easily removable muzzle device in some antigun court to make more case law.

[redcliff]

FIRST as pointed out in the other post federal law is measured with stock folded or with stock removed if with an easily removable stock.

Second the CA law before 1993 did not say meaured with stock folded, but neither did it mention with stock open thus left an opening for an antigun court to make case law.

I am worried because the situation is similar in that I see no where that an easily removable barrel device is or is not counted towards the 26" or the later 30" overall length requirement.

We learned through our fine public school education in the 2nd grade that history has a way of repeating itself and the gun grabbers using the federal definition of easily removable butt stock also meaning easily removable muzzle device in some antigun court to make more case law.

Your mistaken; federal law measures length with stock open as quoted in the letter I posted. However quick-detach easily removeable buttstocks are a problem, which is why Uzi quick detachable wood stocks(not the screwed on models) aren't allowed due to OAL with that firearm.

If you want to silver solder and pin a fake suppressor on an already 16"+ barrel feel free, but I don't see where that's currently the law.

[ke6guj]

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).
We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"

You did notice the part I bolded. ATF seems to have recently taken the position that if you convert a pistol into a rifle, you can't convert it back to a pistol. It would become an SBR, subject to the NFA. That seems to go against the TC Supreme Court ruling.

[RossRinSD]

Your mistaken; federal law measures length with stock open as quoted in the letter I posted. However quick-detach easily removeable buttstocks are a problem, which is why Uzi quick detachable wood stocks(not the screwed on models) aren't allowed due to OAL with that firearm.

If you want to silver solder and pin a fake suppressor on an already 16"+ barrel feel free, but I don't see where that's currently the law.

I need the extra length to meet CA OAL law. It is too short when folded.

You say that an easily detachable stock doesn't count for the feds??

but a fake suppressor that screws off works for CA???

[Xerxes]

Your mistaken; federal law measures length with stock open as quoted in the letter I posted. However quick-detach easily removeable buttstocks are a problem, which is why Uzi quick detachable wood stocks(not the screwed on models) aren't allowed due to OAL with that firearm.

If you want to silver solder and pin a fake suppressor on an already 16"+ barrel feel free, but I don't see where that's currently the law.

First, no, I was not mistaken! You do not have your facts correct and should not post such with your assumptions. Actually it was my fingers were not cooperating and I did not proof read what I typed before I posted. Please read my other two posts and my referencing to the ATF letter response post above before saying mistaken rather than fumble fingered.

Second, since the consensus here is easily removable barrel device is OK then just attach your bayonet (you can easily take this off) Just don't do what JHC did. I think he fumble fingered like I did earlier today by putting the bayonet on the backwards at the end of the rifle.

That is the reason our ordinace says stupid stuff like "POINT TOWARDS ENEMBY", "FACE THIS SIDE TO ENEMY", etc. Looks like JHC needed a real bayonet that said "ATTACH TO FRONT OF RIFLE", 'BAYONET TO FACE ENEMY"....etc, as he got it backwards attaching it to the back instead of the front

I fear we will soon have one less member when that gun bayonets him to death and we read a news article about a man that bayoneted himself to death with his own firearm at the range and the Brady Bunch sieze on it to call for legistlation to ban bayonets and gun ranges due to another innocent person dying. The rest of us just see it as gene selection and survival of the smartes.

If you want to keep the folding ability it's pretty easy to tack weld on a rear trunion extension to get your length, a piece of bar stock [sic YOUR BAYONET FOR YOUR RIFLE] is easy but I prefer this myself, "it's for the children you know".


[/IMG]

[redcliff]

First, no, I was not mistaken! You do not have your facts correct and should not post such with your assumptions. Actually it was my fingers were not cooperating and I did not proof read what I typed before I posted. Please read my other two posts and my referencing to the ATF letter response post above before saying mistaken rather than fumble fingered.

Ok let me fix that.. You're fumble fingerred, not mistaken. Forgive me for not memorizing the poster of every comment in this thread and not realizing that the Great and Powerful Xerxes didn't mean what he said and was just "fumble fingerred".

However I resent your implying that I shouldn't post and that my facts are incorrect when you're the one who posted something incorrect; albeit by accident, i.e. that Federal law measures OAL with stock closed.

If I posted something incorrect, please feel free to illuminate me with a link to the law I was wrong on. I'm willing (and indeed anxious) to learn.


How about a middle ground where the fake suppressor on the 16+" barrel is red-loctited on and would need a tool to remove? Is that a more comfortable solution?