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Birdshot in battle?

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  • #46
    AKfan
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 82

    Originally posted by SuperSet
    This video seems relevant to the OP's question. According to the AAR, the weapon was a 20 gauge with birdshot. Even at close range, it was very ineffective.

    As you can see from this video, the shooter was able to suppress the police and made them panic and duck for cover. Even after being shot, the officers still ducked and the way they returned fire was to take quick peeks and shoot quickly. Now as long as people don't learn it's ONLY BIRDSHOT, they might be suppressed even at long distances and could even have an intended effect in a tactic at long distances-any gun going off will get you to duck at least once. Indeed, you see it all the time in gunfights. People shoot rounds off aiming in general direction for suppression and even if you know the aiming is not well done, it still MIGHT hit you-that 1-5% chance it will lodge in your head = stay DOWN. I know this is close distance or even long distance if I hear/see a shotgun go off, I am not going to walk up to the shooter and have a calm face to face interview with the muzzle end of a shotgun blasting away: "What shot size are you?" People are also known to mix up the types of shells/rounds in guns AND carry multiple guns and associate with multiple buddies with multiple guns. The officers also did not know if the shooter had OTHER GUNS and they did not know if there were OTHER shooters involved. So you see, in a gunfight there are alot of unknowns. Attacking a group with birdshot to LET them know "all this guys got is birdshot" can lead to an ambush of pursuers after a planned retreat of birdshot shooter! LOL!!! So people know this, that in a life and death situation, not all the variables are known-and this can work for you especially if someone drops their guard and thinks they KNOW IT ALL, "He only has birdshot! Let's get em!!" So YES, you can use birdshot to "suppress" then lead enemies into an ambush, maybe even a concealed pit with spikes in it. It's called pissing them off by "suppressing" them with birdshot, followed by a false retreat, crowned by an ambush with traps, multiple other people on your side with buckshot, and semi-auto battle rifles, etc.

    QUOTING Scuba Steve33

    "Voice of Reason, your question was not a valid one. If that hurts your feelings, grow thicker skin. Why in the hell would you want to annoy the enemy during combat? You only have one goal during combat and that is to kill him. Period."

    Ambushes executed correctly can be a very effective way to kill people, and annoying people is a GREAT way to initiate and redirect their movement into an AMBUSH where you control multiple factors and they move OUT of cover and position themselves into your fire zones where you have cover, higher ground, the element of surprise, and they are moving and may not have cover. These are the basics. There is a chinese strategy called "Beating the grass to startle the Snakes" ... think about it guys, think of all the beautiful variations.




    13. Beat the grass to startle the snakes. Korean: Ta ch'o gyeong sa
    打草驚蛇 - Beat the grass and frighten away the snake

    When opponents are reserved and unfathomable, you create some sort of stir to see how they will react. Yagyfi mentions this, and also notes that it is used in Sun (Zen). Certain Sun sayings and stories are used primarily to test people and find out what they are like.

    Combat application: Test your opponents reactions with hand strikes, low kicks, verbal attacks etc. Push their buttons.

    AND:

    11. One tree falls for another. Korean: Ri dae do gang
    李代桃僵 - The plum dies for the apricot

    Individual sacrifices may have to made to achieve a greater goal. (substitute this for that)

    Combat application: Create a false opening to bait the attacker into a trap.

    15. Train a tiger to leave the mountains. Korean: Jo ho ri san
    調虎離山 - Lure the tiger out of the mountain

    You don't go into the fastness of powerful opponents' territory, but induce them to come out of their stronghold.

    Combat application: Bait your attacker with a false opening.

    It's extremely interesting how I can look at the same criteria/circumstances you are all looking at and get entirely different perspective/outcomes. That is the beauty of sharing perspectives and free and open discussion. So I think I earned a LOL
    Last edited by AKfan; 01-01-2013, 1:41 PM.
    "Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed and no republic can survive. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy"

    -President JFK

    "Any government that would attempt to disarm its people is despotic; and any people that would submit to it deserves to be slaves!"

    -H. Yoakum (1855)

    Comment

    • #47
      Scuba Steve33
      Banned
      • Jan 2012
      • 2339

      Dude what the **** are you talking about?

      Comment

      • #48
        Renaissance Redneck
        Senior Member
        • May 2012
        • 638

        Originally posted by olhunter
        The BEST way to make it difficult for them to return fire is to KILL them with overwhelming firepower. Not sprinkle them with pixie dust.
        Actually, the best way is to WOUND them, not kill them. A wounded soldier/Marine will be attended to by at least one other soldier/Marine, taking two or more out of the fight. A dead guy is dead, and doesn't need any attending-to; only one guy is out of the fight.

        Just sayin'!

        OohRah!
        .
        .

        Comment

        • #49
          Scuba Steve33
          Banned
          • Jan 2012
          • 2339

          Originally posted by Renaissance Redneck
          Actually, the best way is to WOUND them, not kill them. A wounded soldier/Marine will be attended to by at least one other soldier/Marine, taking two or more out of the fight. A dead guy is dead, and doesn't need any attending-to; only one guy is out of the fight.

          Just sayin'!

          OohRah!
          If you're shooting at Americans or other Western forces, true, but the same does not apply to most of our enemies. Our unwillingness to leave a fallen comrade is both an enormous strength and weakness. The Taliban and al-Qaeda believe dying while waging war against us is the best thing that can happen and they do not have the same care for one another as we do.

          Comment

          • #50
            AKfan
            Junior Member
            • Dec 2012
            • 82

            Originally posted by Scuba Steve33
            Dude what the **** are you talking about?
            Exactly!! Combat can be a lot more varied than, "Hey you, take this gun and kill them! Oh, and don't get killed by them!" Tactics, strategies are very useful. Ambushes, psychological warfare etc. Cannon fodder just move forward into the frontline without tact nor wit. So pissing off people with birdshot can be VERY useful. The problem is people don't like to learn and they like to keep things simple and lackluster that way you can't call them dumb for being too simple-minded. The chinese have been fighting battles for hundreds and thousands of years. And yes, they had firearms but they called them bows and crossbows, cannon, muskets etc. And they used both "special forces", spies, and armies in the hundreds of thousands and they adapted strategies down from one man to 100,000+ men. Come on ranger, ambushes are real good tactics. Don't be so coy. I know you are smarter than that. Don't hate on the birdshot suppression, lol.
            Last edited by AKfan; 01-03-2013, 11:37 AM.
            "Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed and no republic can survive. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy"

            -President JFK

            "Any government that would attempt to disarm its people is despotic; and any people that would submit to it deserves to be slaves!"

            -H. Yoakum (1855)

            Comment

            • #51
              AKfan
              Junior Member
              • Dec 2012
              • 82



              I don't see how a Ranger cannot see the value or potential of an AMBUSH from Birdshot-Harassment. Angering your enemies is a VERY good way to throw them off balance and get them to do STUPID things, you just have to be prepared to USE their stupidity!! So Ranger, are you here to SHARE your knowledge and skills or NOT? You see, I doubt your training or motives here on calguns.
              "Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed and no republic can survive. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy"

              -President JFK

              "Any government that would attempt to disarm its people is despotic; and any people that would submit to it deserves to be slaves!"

              -H. Yoakum (1855)

              Comment

              • #52
                Gem1950
                Veteran Member
                • Jun 2008
                • 2876

                Harry Whittington shot in face

                It’s a special 3 year anniversary. Harry M. Whittington (born March 3, 1927) is the American lawyer and real estate investor who received international media attention on February 11, 2006.  …


                Lesson - Cocktails and shotguns don't mix well.
                "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine



                "We keep you alive to serve this ship. Row well and live."

                "Is that a desert country?" "No; a fat country; fat people." "You are not fat?" "No. I'm different..."

                Comment

                • #53
                  SDgarrick
                  Senior Member
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 1192

                  sort of off topic, but so is this whole thread.
                  I overheard a clerk at a big5 selling ammo to a man who had just finished his DROS form on a shotgun. He recommended #6 bird-shot for HD, so that it wouldn't penetrate walls, "you are responsible for every pellet..." which is something we can all agree on. I kept my mouth shut, though i felt that there were better ammo recomendations.

                  Comment

                  • #54
                    bkk6869
                    Member
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 453

                    Originally posted by winnre
                    thanks a ton for that video. my shotgun is my backup home defense to my 9mm. i always have a lot of birdshot because i like to do trap/skeet, so i've always loaded up the shotgun with birdshot when its on backup duty in the safe. i'll be grabbing a box of buckshot and a box of slugs next time i'm at the store.
                    I don't own any guns...they're dangerous.

                    Comment

                    • #55
                      Gem1950
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 2876

                      thanks a ton for that video. my shotgun is my backup home defense to my 9mm. i always have a lot of birdshot because i like to do trap/skeet, so i've always loaded up the shotgun with birdshot when its on backup duty in the safe. i'll be grabbing a box of buckshot and a box of slugs next time i'm at the store.
                      #4 - 27 pellets
                      "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine



                      "We keep you alive to serve this ship. Row well and live."

                      "Is that a desert country?" "No; a fat country; fat people." "You are not fat?" "No. I'm different..."

                      Comment

                      • #56
                        bkk6869
                        Member
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 453

                        #4 works too, i'll have to grab whatever i can't since my local walmart is emptied of pretty much everything.

                        on a related side note. my brother has a good friend who has been through over 3 years of therapy because of a robbery. he grabbed his shotgun with 00 loaded in it and confronted a home intruder. the guy reached behind his back and my brothers friend pulled the trigger. damn near took the robbers head off at about 10 feet. the cops told him he was lucky because the robber had a loaded .357 in his belt. his friend sold all of his guns except for a snub .38. its had a horrible affect on him.
                        I don't own any guns...they're dangerous.

                        Comment

                        • #57
                          i travel some
                          Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 243

                          Originally posted by bkk6869
                          #4 works too, i'll have to grab whatever i can't since my local walmart is emptied of pretty much everything.

                          on a related side note. my brother has a good friend who has been through over 3 years of therapy because of a robbery. he grabbed his shotgun with 00 loaded in it and confronted a home intruder. the guy reached behind his back and my brothers friend pulled the trigger. damn near took the robbers head off at about 10 feet. the cops told him he was lucky because the robber had a loaded .357 in his belt. his friend sold all of his guns except for a snub .38. its had a horrible affect on him.
                          holy crap! Seperate thread on this please
                          "Any day above ground is a good day"

                          Comment

                          • #58
                            bkk6869
                            Member
                            • Oct 2012
                            • 453

                            really not much more to ad to it. i don't talk to my brothers friend but he told me the story and it hit me because my wifes biggest fear isn't someone breaking in and her having to take them down, its how she'll react after she does it.
                            I don't own any guns...they're dangerous.

                            Comment

                            • #59
                              voiceofreason
                              Veteran Member
                              • Oct 2010
                              • 3785

                              Check out the Federal Tactical #1 buckshot with FliteControl Wad.

                              You may not be a fan of the "Pizza box of truth", but here is their writeup anyway:

                              "You will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it."
                              John Quincy Adams

                              "You will never know how little my generation has traded away our freedoms and rights for. I'm sorry and ashamed for what we've left to the following generations."
                              voiceofreason

                              Comment

                              • #60
                                DPC
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2005
                                • 845

                                Maybe if you ues the cut-shell techique.

                                Comment

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