Why the FBI uses 9mm video.

[socal m1 shooter]

Carrying is a discipline, I cannot imagine complaining about a Glock 22 as too heavy.

I carried a Glock 17 ( 17+1 ) for over 5 years, and while the round ( 9 / 40 ) may be slightly ( ounces ) heavier- it’s not 3 pounds heavy.

Looks like they may need some more physical strength training over there. [...]

I'm not alone in deciding that I would rather carry a 1.5 lb-ish polymer-framed compact pistol than a full-size, all-metal 3-lb-ish beast like a 5" 1911 or a 1076. Even with a Nexbelt or equivalent.

I'm not sure who was allowed shoulder holsters in the FBI but according to Grok the issue holster for the 1076 was a Safariland with a retention strap.

The lawyer who runs the place where I go for retraining carried a nice full-size 1911 for years and the last time I did the renewal class I noticed he's now carrying a P365, the really small one. Comfort is king.

[acaligunner]

^
I hear you.

Back in the day ( before polymer ), for years I carried an all steal 5” 1911 in a milt sparks iwb with and extra magazine.

If we were not carrying that - it was a 4” S&W 357 mag with HK speedloaders 😁.

I figure now with all the new polymer frame micro / compact pistols - why I guess things change.

Certainly there’s much more to choose from - and I figure 9mm offers a lot of options to suit much more shooters.

Thank you and I appreciate the post 🙂

[sigstroker]

That bple was a 115gr hp if I recall, been a long time.
Was the 115 federal hydra shok also available back then ?

9BPLE was 115 +P, at least. Might have been +P+. I clocked it at well over 1300 fps, approaching 4 inch .357 Magnum territory.

As I recall, Hydra-Shoks were only 147 gr subsonic. I entered a bowling pin match and figured the heavier bullets would be better. I literally watched it bounce off a pin while barely moving it. I was staring intently at the fat part of a pin right as the bullet hit it, flatten out, and bounce off. It left the telltale smudge where the center post of the hollow point was clear to see. That was the last box of 9mm Hydra-Shoks I ever bought. I still have the partial box, 40 years later.

[acaligunner]

Oh yeah, If I remember right +P+ was becoming popular.

I had a Interarms Star PD that I used Remington 185gr +P ammo in. It was a nifty little pistol.

[socal m1 shooter]

OH Baby... a video of some guy shooting a 10mm MP5.

[Duck Killer]

9mm didn't have to improve, the FBI just needed to be smart enough not to choose a bullet widely known to be the least penetrative 9mm on the market. But they decided to be stupid instead.

There was plenty of good 9mm hollowpoints on the market back then.

9mm has a large amount of velocity and bullet grain variances. The biggest problem with 9mm is they were using/comparing weak loads of 9mm to max out loads of other calibers. 9mm didn’t need to improve. I know people hear FBI and think experts but they aren’t or at least their methods are flawed. Their testing is many times best case scenario in controlled environments. Most hollow points don’t expand or penetrate like they are supposed to. Humans are not ballistic gel.

What makes 9mm is the velocity. The probability of expansion is greater over a larger range of scenarios. The 115 grain hi-shok +p+ works really well because of its velocity. Slower bullets just don’t expand as well.

The best advice on hollow points I have heard is that shoot them on a wing and prayer that they work but put them where it won’t matter if they don’t.

[Dan_Eastvale]

Because not everyone can shoot a .45. The guns are bigger, recoil harder, and hold less ammo. You notice how much the interviewee mentions "system" ie the gun, the ammo, and the shooter. They have to taylor the "stystem" to work for the most amount of people. This includes people with small hands, weak hands, 90 pound females and people who don't "love" guns and will shoot only the minimum required. Terminal ballistics is not "the" factor, just one small piece. Having a group of 10,000 people who shoot 70% on quals and win 50% of gunfights with .45's vs 85% on quals and win 75% of gun fights with 9mm is a no brainer. I'm just pulling numbers out of my *** but you get the point.

[/QUOTE]

Yes

It's interesting how so many officers do NOT really like guns. Not hobbyists at all. Just do their required training in case they will need them., carry them, and set them aside for the night when they get home.

[Scotty]

Yes

It's interesting how so many officers do NOT really like guns. Not hobbyists at all. Just do their required training in case they will need them., carry them, and set them aside for the night when they get home.[/QUOTE]

That's pretty much most people who are required to carry a gun. Probably less than 10% play with guns on their own time.

[acaligunner]

Just some questions-
Yes, but the FBI is using full size / compact ( G19 ) size pistols, and depending on single stack vs double stack 9mm - wouldn’t a 1911 / sig 220 size pistol “ fit “ people’s hands better ?

Also, 45acp ( non +P ) recoil as a slight push, compared to hotter ( +P ) and some full powered 9mm loads.

As to working with folks that are not gunners - a pistol that’s fits ( as the above mentioned ^ ) gives overall folks a better fit, than a high capacity wide framed grip.

As to the percentages ~ are most of those gunfighters just dumping rounds into the bg’s - compared to 45 shooters dropping the bg’s ?

Is the controversy still valid when comparing “stopping power “ between 9mm and the 45 hst ?

These are just my general questions that I just threw out there.

For some cg reason - it didn’t let me copy and paste above post.

[Duck Killer]

The controversy over 9mm and 45 even 40 really doesn’t exist if you are making good shots. If you put any of them in the right spot they are affective. Where the difference is how you shoot them and train with them. A 45 is usually a slower rate of fire usually one round verse a 9mm where most fire multiple rounds at a target. 40 loses out because you have a lower capacity then 9 but don’t have the power or confidence of a 45. 9mm does have the advantage of more capacity for missing and bad shots.

You can even apply this to military rifles. 30-06 to 556. One round of 30-06 will be as affective as 3 rounds of 556. So technically a Garand 8 round is as good as 24 rounds of 556 in terms of killing power. So 556 has an advantage of 2 more kills per mag and more ammo for misses and suppressive fire.

[Ewok55]

As to the Miami shootout, the two bank robbers wore level IIIA body armor that would stop most any handgun cartridges and bullets considered, but there are handgun cartridges that will defeat IIIA. It seems to me that if the agents had a few standard military service rifles, they could have ended it fast. The shootout did start the handgun choice analysis at high enough levels to affect future handgun/ammo choices, a great response, but I disagree that the future handgun ammo choices made would have made a difference in that particular case.

[AreWeNotMen?]

The 115 grain hi-shok +p+ works really well because of its velocity. Slower bullets just don’t expand as well.

Seems the slow and heavy do better.

Note - "115 grain hi-shok +p+" is obsolete/no longer made

image.png

[Duck Killer]

Seems the slow and heavy do better.

Note - "115 grain hi-shok +p+" is obsolete/no longer made

image.png

Once again ballistic gel testing is not the same as humans. Ballistic gel offers consistent resistance. People don’t. Additionally you don’t need that much penetration. Faster rounds expand faster meaning they slow down faster and deposit all their energy into a target. Any bullet that leaves the body is energy being lost. Over penetration is as big of a problem as under penetration. Bullets go through people and hit other people.

I can buy 9BPLE in law enforcement packaging right now from target sports. It is still being made and advertised towards law enforcement.

[AreWeNotMen?]

"Once again..." no sh..t, but ballistic gel is what the FBI uses. And the FBI does indeed say you need a minimum 12" penetration.
Pendantic much?

[Duck Killer]

"Once again..." no sh..t, but ballistic gel is what the FBI uses. And the FBI does indeed say you need a minimum 12" penetration.
Pendantic much?

Ignorant much.