Why the FBI uses 9mm video.

[acaligunner]

Just their thoughts on 9mm.

The Miami shootout
My question would be why didn’t they use H&K mp5’s and a shotgun, instead of going up against BG’s with a rifle and known to be violent.

Why 9mm has improved ( bullet design) with 127 / 135 / 147 grain rounds .
My question would be why not use 45acp with 185gr +P , 230gr +P rounds that have also improved ?
The idea that you may also need firepower - but are you als not with a partner / backup ? If you are going into a more dangerous situation then you’ll be wise to have long guns ..

So more data on what they are going with.

https://youtu.be/ZybcWWu4ddk?si=Uk7__-Y5287HhqjC

[socal m1 shooter]

They didn't completely retreat from 10mm entirely, all at once. Within the last ten years or so there were FBI people who still had the 10mm H&K MP5 they had been issued. These were full auto/three-shot burst/semi-auto. Someone I knew was issued one.

[mossy]

I usually hate TFBTV videos, but this one is extremely well done. James isn't making idiotic jokes or shilling some random product and the guest has a large amount of real world experience.

[G-forceJunkie]

My question would be why not use 45acp with 185gr +P , 230gr +P rounds that have also improved ?

Because not everyone can shoot a .45. The guns are bigger, recoil harder, and hold less ammo. You notice how much the interviewee mentions "system" ie the gun, the ammo, and the shooter. They have to taylor the "stystem" to work for the most amount of people. This includes people with small hands, weak hands, 90 pound females and people who don't "love" guns and will shoot only the minimum required. Terminal ballistics is not "the" factor, just one small piece. Having a group of 10,000 people who shoot 70% on quals and win 50% of gunfights with .45's vs 85% on quals and win 75% of gun fights with 9mm is a no brainer. I'm just pulling numbers out of my *** but you get the point.

[/QUOTE]

[acaligunner]

^
I hear you.

I also wonder, if a person cannot handle a 2 pound ( all steel ) 45, and has a problem with a all steel pistol , firing 185 + P rounds - how are they going to handle a 275 pound yoked out weight lifting convict set of going hands on ?

😁🤫

[donalli]

Just read FBIs 30x30 pledge and you will know why...

[Garbcollector]

A mp5 in 10mm what a sweet combo.

[acaligunner]

It would have been better for the FBI to have been armed with H&K MP5’s than to meet a bg with pistols when the bg had a 223 rifle.

The carbine would have given the bullet a bit more penetration, and would have given the gg’s more capacity.

There’s many variables in gunfights - my brother shot 110 pound soldiers with 5.56 / 7.62x39 and had to shoot some multiple times.

9mm is a good multi use system, but I guess for the benefit of the team - it was the better choice.

IMG_9621.jpg

[socal m1 shooter]

A mp5 in 10mm what a sweet combo.

That is what I heard. Someone who was on the job and had some training went with FBI agent friend to the range with the MP5 in 10mm. He was greatly impressed, but if I remember what he said, this one-- it had a two-shot burst, apparently some were configured that way-- would put the first round center-of-mass and the second shot about 10" to 12" higher. Even when anticipating the recoil and attempting to control it. I thought it was interesting because the MP5 is roller-delayed, which is supposed to be smoother and less snappy than other pistol-caliber carbine designs.

I was very sorry not to be able to join that range trip. FBI agent retired shortly after he turned in the MP5, so no future opportunities.

[G-forceJunkie]

^
I hear you.

I also wonder, if a person cannot handle a 2 pound ( all steel ) 45, and has a problem with a all steel pistol , firing 185 + P rounds - how are they going to handle a 275 pound yoked out weight lifting convict set of going hands on ?

😁🤫

They are going to shoot him with a 9mm You got to remember, while "FBI" sounds fancy and what not, 95% of them are not door kickers and trigger pullers. Its tens of thousands of people carrying guns alot and shooting them very little. The interviewee mentioned Glock 22's were too big and heavy so they went to the 23's and the "system" broke down. If a 23 oz Glock is too big/heavy, ANY all steal .45 is out of the question.

[sigstroker]

Just their thoughts on 9mm.

The Miami shootout
My question would be why didn’t they use H&K mp5’s and a shotgun, instead of going up against BG’s with a rifle and known to be violent.

Why 9mm has improved ( bullet design) with 127 / 135 / 147 grain rounds .
My question would be why not use 45acp with 185gr +P , 230gr +P rounds that have also improved ?
The idea that you may also need firepower - but are you als not with a partner / backup ? If you are going into a more dangerous situation then you’ll be wise to have long guns ..

So more data on what they are going with.

https://youtu.be/ZybcWWu4ddk?si=Uk7__-Y5287HhqjC

9mm didn't have to improve, the FBI just needed to be smart enough not to choose a bullet widely known to be the least penetrative 9mm on the market. But they decided to be stupid instead.

There was plenty of good 9mm hollowpoints on the market back then.

[nosuchagency]

was an interesting video for gun guys to nerd out on for sure. imo, agree that silvertips were not an ideal choice outside of a dwelling environment. Federal bple had been around for several years with a positive track record. I think Winchester was also manufacturing their equivalent of same load at the time.

[acaligunner]

That bple was a 115gr hp if I recall, been a long time.
Was the 115 federal hydra shok also available back then ?

[socal m1 shooter]

The interviewee mentioned Glock 22's were too big and heavy so they went to the 23's and the "system" broke down. If a 23 oz Glock is too big/heavy, ANY all steal .45 is out of the question.

Remember the first-gen FBI 10mm pistols were third-gen S&W pistols like the 1076 (start just after 16 minutes in), which weighs around 3 lbs loaded. That is a lot of weight on any kind of gunbelt, particularly if you are dressed in a suit. If you walk around with a 3-lb pistol, even with a modern Nexbelt or equivalent, that is a lot of weight pulling down on that belt. I can easily imagine people complaining about this.

[acaligunner]

Carrying is a discipline, I cannot imagine complaining about a Glock 22 as too heavy.

I carried a Glock 17 ( 17+1 ) for over 5 years, and while the round ( 9 / 40 ) may be slightly ( ounces ) heavier- it’s not 3 pounds heavy.

Looks like they may need some more physical strength training over there.

As to the 9mm bullet improvements ? Does the FBI not acknowledge that other caliber have also advanced?

9mm is somewhat easy to carry / shoot - but if you use the sights ( red dot etc ), and squeeze the trigger - wouldn’t the shooter be able to hit the same as with any pistol. Or does the dept not have enough time / training to teach basic firearms fundamentals?