Please Help--Quick Straw Purchase Question

[Justin Case]

Thanks for the very instructive thread :-) Many things can be learned from this thread. Other than a very clear explication of the law (by a lawyer, no less - and by a very meticulous Librarian); I found it to be entertaining in a slightly disconcerting way to watch in wonder as people (who are not lawyers) made clowns of themselves arguing a point of law with a lawyer :-|

And many thanks to Fiddletown and Librarian for ensuring that reliable knowledge continues to be disseminated on this site ;-)

[MASTERNOOB]

Well according to an article I recently read a straw purchase is legal if the true recipient is qualified to own a gun.

[fiddletown]

Well according to an article I recently read a straw purchase is legal if the true recipient is qualified to own a gun.

But that's just a Wikipedia article. The ATF says otherwise, and the ATF trumps a Wikipedia article.

[MASTERNOOB]

Well I'm sure the ATF wouldn't lie.

[lilro]

How about this:

Your dad buys the gun for X amount of dollars on his debit card. He goes to the range, decides he doesn't like it, and SELLS it to you for X-10 dollars. Not intrafamilial transfer, straight up PPT. You go about your merry way, and buy him lunch.

Would that be legal?

[fiddletown]

Well I'm sure the ATF wouldn't lie.

It's not a question of ATF lying. ATF is an agency responsible for enforcing these laws, and they are telling you how they will apply the law. If you want to chance telling a judge that ATF is wrong based on Wikipedia article, have fun.

Also, two lawyers and Librarian have contradicted the Wikipedia article. Are we "lying"?

[fiddletown]

How about this:

Your dad buys the gun for X amount of dollars on his debit card. He goes to the range, decides he doesn't like it, and SELLS it to you for X-10 dollars. Not intrafamilial transfer, straight up PPT. You go about your merry way, and buy him lunch.

Would that be legal?

Not when it's all been arranged ahead of time.

[lilro]

Not when it's all been arranged ahead of time.

Oh ok. I thought it was only a straw purchase if the "buyer" was avoiding a 4473. Whether he was permitted to own firearms or not.

[Hoop]

Oh ok. I thought it was only a straw purchase if the "buyer" was avoiding a 4473

The ATF paperwork asks if you are the actual BUYER of the firearm; if you are using someone else' money on their behalf you are not the actual buyer.

Lots of people buy guns, don't like them and re-sell them to friends. It happens all the time and is perfectly legal. Some people try to make a business of this and are constantly buying and re-selling which is usually what will throw up a flag for the ATF.

As far as Fiddletown's scenario I think it would be hard to prove unless you had evidence of agreement that the buyer had no intent to keep the firearm for themselves.

Like say, posting on an internet message board asking about sending money to someone to buy a gun for you...

Personally I don't think that the Black Helicopters will descend from the sky upon someone for doing this but I have heard of people who bought 10-20+ firearms in this manner (essentially acting like FFL's with no FFL) and they did get visits from the ATF.

[fiddletown]

...As far as Fiddletown's scenario I think it would be hard to prove unless you had evidence of agreement that the buyer had no intent to keep the firearm for themselves.

Like say, posting on an internet message board asking about sending money to someone to buy a gun for you....

Of course that's about getting away with something, not whether it's legal.

And prosecutors convince juries about intent all the time.




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[strongpoint]

Well according to an article I recently read a straw purchase is legal if the true recipient is qualified to own a gun.

Oh ok. I thought it was only a straw purchase if the "buyer" was avoiding a 4473. Whether he was permitted to own firearms or not.

again? OK ...

a) purchasing a firearm with the intent of not keeping it requires a lie on part of the 4473 (question 11.a, to be precise).

b) lying on the 4473 is a felony -- even if a later transfer never takes place.

simple enough? it doesn't mean you can't sell it or even give it away later. of course you can probably get away with it if you're careful, but you should understand what you're getting yourself into.

hoop and fiddletown have this well covered, and it's been beaten to death repeatedly in this thread.

[FalconLair]

ok simple enough, if you pre-arrange with pops to buy it for you and he agrees to do this, knowing that his intended purchase is actually for you, lies on the 4473 form as to him being the actual buyer, now the crime has been committed.

sounds like its all about the initial lying on the 4473 form. People probably do buy guns all the time with the intent to resell those gun, just seems to me like the fact this is a pre-arranged sale makes it questionable in the eyes of the BATF.

how easy or hard to prove something like this could be a task, especially if no record of money ever changing hands (like cash) could be proven, but I think the only point Fiddletown and Librarian are trying to convey is that, according to the letter of the law, doing so in that matter makes this a straw purchase and illegal.

I suspect its done all the time, the gun business is just far to lucrative to let wording on a form stop people from doing this. How much of a red flag this type of transaction would create between you and your dad is probably overstated. While I would never tell someone to intentionally lie on a form or do something that could be contrued as a crime, as stated by someone in an earlier post, I dont think the Black Helicopters would be descending down upon you anytime soon, if this transaction was to happen.

Personally I think there should be some "allowed" leeway, but I don't get to make that call, so for now, if you want it, you must decide how you wanna get it. Good Luck though

[FalconLair]

the one thing I still have not begun to understand is why 3 pages worth of information about this has occurred just because you dont wanna take a drive south and secure the gun for yourself? If the money is that tight maybe you should just hold on to it and buy a gun when your finances are a little less restricted.

unless there is just a tad more to all of this...iono

[Bert Gamble]

I understand it is a straw purchase if I give "Joe" money to buy a gun that he is going to give to me, but what if I just loan him the money with the intention of him paying me back on a schedule decided between the two of us?

Wouldn't that be like me buying a gun with a credit card? Someone else, (the bank) would be using their money to purchase it for me, and I would pay them back on a set schedule.

[strongpoint]

I understand it is a straw purchase if I give "Joe" money to buy a gun that he is going to give to me, but what if I just loan him the money with the intention of him paying me back on a schedule decided between the two of us?

Wouldn't that be like me buying a gun with a credit card? Someone else, (the bank) would be using their money to purchase it for me, and I would pay them back on a set schedule.

would joe be lying on the 4473 about whether he's purchasing the gun for himself? hint: if he is, that's gonna make your question a lot easier to answer.