Please Help--Quick Straw Purchase Question

[davek8s]

Has anyone ever heard of 2 normal people being arrested for the OP's original question? I mean, if they break the law and the op gave his dad the money to buy a gun in dads name. Then the dad turns around a week later and transfers the gun to the OP with a PPT.

How would anyone know?

To me a straw purchase is me buying my friends-brothers-coworker a gun because he just out of the pen and needs to strap a gat.

I know it is technically a crime, but so are porn and sex toys in some counties.

[fiddletown]

Has anyone ever heard of 2 normal people being arrested for the OP's original question? I mean, if they break the law and the op gave his dad the money to buy a gun in dads name. Then the dad turns around a week later and transfers the gun to the OP with a PPT...

[1] That doesn't mean something like that [being arrested] hasn't happened.

[2] That doesn't mean that it can't happen.

[3] That doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen to you if you tried it.

There's a difference between not committing a crime and committing a crime and getting away with it.

...How would anyone know?...

People who have committed crimes sometimes get found out all sorts of ways -- saying the wrong thing to the wrong person; someone finding out and ratting them out; something they posted on the Internet, etc. Of course not committing a crime makes those sorts of things a lot less worrisome.

...To me a straw purchase is me buying my friends-brothers-coworker a gun because he just out of the pen and needs to strap a gat...

That might be what it is to you, but that's not what it is here, in real life, to a judge.

...I know it is technically a crime, but so are porn and sex toys in some counties.

Well, we're here where lying on a 4473 about who the actually buyer is is a crime. There's really no difference between being technically a crime and being a crime; you can go to prison for just as long in either case.

[davek8s]

I just think that the people who get busted on a straw purchase aren't usually father and son law abiding gun owners. More like a girlfriend doing what her felon boyfriend tells her.

But you're technically right according to the letter of the law.

[tazmanian devil dog]

OMG!!!!! This whole thread is giving me a headache!

Sheesh!!!

[davek8s]

OMG!!!!! This whole thread is giving me a headache!

Sheesh!!!

I'm enjoying this thread. I like when people get all worked up.

[mrdd]

The intent of the prohibition of straw purchases concerning firearms are actually fairly simple, and fall into two general purposes:

1) The government does not want people buying guns for prohibited individuals

2) The government does not want people acting as middlemen in any form unless they have a license

The only exception to (2) is a bona fide gift, where the giver is not fulfilling a request from the recipient, there is no renumeration for the gift, and the giver is acting infrequently.

[g_conway]

If the first transfer involves lying on the 4473, subsequent transfers 'doing it right' do not correct the initial crime.

If the first purchase says "I am the buyer, register to me," that is legal no matter where the money came from. If any subsequent transfer of the weapon is from the "first purchaser" to a second purchaser who also undergoes the proper DOJ check and forms, then NOTHING illegal has transpired.

I understand the concept of "intent" and Librarian is stating correctly that "buying for someone else" is tecnically illegal. The problem is that in order for a straw purchase to take place there is two parts to the crime.
The purchase.
The illegal transfer of that firearm.

So, if the subsequent transfer is done above board and legally, no crime has been commited.

[Librarian]

If the first purchase says "I am the buyer, register to me," that is legal no matter where the money came from.

Not if the money comes from a different person than who is filling out the form.

If it's YOUR money, fine. Anyone could give you a gift of money, and you could spend that as you like.

If at a later date you choose to sell the gun to someone else, fine. You can choose to give the gun as a gift; that's OK, too.

If there's some kind of deal, some understanding that the buyer is buying with the intent to later transfer it to a second party, and it's not a gift, not fine.

Proving intent may be difficult; being apprehended may be unlikely.

But lying on the 4473, about who is the actual buyer, is defined as illegal.

You need to believe this. You need to actively decide, with complete information, whether you care to risk 5 years in Federal prison to get a gun for another person. Once you decide, then you should act in the way that you perceive serves your own interests.

[fiddletown]

....The problem is that in order for a straw purchase to take place there is two parts to the crime.
The purchase.
The illegal transfer of that firearm....

Wrong. The crime is making a false statement on the 4473 regarding who the actual purchaser is (in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6)). Once the first person makes that false statement on the 4473, the crime has been committed, and what happens afterwards can't change things.

So, for example, if --

1. X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or when I get my HSC, or whenever else].", or
   
   
2. X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."

or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.

[snobord99]

Wrong. The crime is making a false statement on the 4473 regarding who the actual purchaser is (in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6)). Once the first person makes that false statement on the 4473, the crime has been committed, and what happens afterwards can't change things.

So, for example, if --

1. X says to Y, "Here's the money; buy that gun and then we'll do the transfer to me [when I get back to town, or when I get my HSC, or whenever else].", or
   
   
2. X says to Y, "Buy that gun and hold it for me; I'll buy from you when I get my next paycheck."

or anything similar, if Y then buys the gun, he is not the actual buyer. He is buying the gun as the agent of X, on his behalf; and X is legally the actual buyer. If Y claims on the 4473 that he is the actual buyer, he has lied and violated 18 USC 922(a)(6). His subsequently transferring the gun to X in full compliance with the law, does not erase his prior criminal act of lying on the 4473.

Can someone please explain to me why it's so hard for so many to understand such a simple concept?

[SgtMerc]

Can someone please explain to me why it's so hard for so many to understand such a simple concept?

I don't think it's a matter of understanding, but believing the words mean something else in order to justify their desires.

Could someone get their parent to buy a gun for them with intent to pay it back later? yes.
Could they do so in a way that makes it look like a gift? yes.
Does that make it right? No. In the end, your intent is to have someone else buy the gun for you. call it a "gift" all you want, but if you told them to get it for you, then it's a straw purchase.

[strongpoint]

Can someone please explain to me why it's so hard for so many to understand such a simple concept?

i don't get it either. it's black and white.

If the first purchase says "I am the buyer, register to me," that is legal no matter where the money came from. If any subsequent transfer of the weapon is from the "first purchaser" to a second purchaser who also undergoes the proper DOJ check and forms, then NOTHING illegal has transpired.

I understand the concept of "intent" and Librarian is stating correctly that "buying for someone else" is tecnically illegal. The problem is that in order for a straw purchase to take place there is two parts to the crime.
The purchase.
The illegal transfer of that firearm.

So, if the subsequent transfer is done above board and legally, no crime has been commited.

nonsense. just walk through this with me.

1. as part of a transfer or purchase, you're filling out ATF form 4473. assume for the sake of this example that you are transferring or purchasing this firearm with the intent that it will eventually be in the possession of someone else. maybe they paid you in advance; maybe they didn't. maybe they're prohibited; maybe they're not. maybe you're going to conduct a legal transfer later; maybe you're not. none of that matters at this exact moment in time.
   
2. question 11.a -- the first yes/no question -- reads (in part) as follows: are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? warning: you are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person.
   
3. if you answer "no" to question 11.a, you will not be allowed to carry out the transfer or purchase.
   
4. if you answer "yes" in this case, you have committed a crime.

witness: right above where you sign on the second page, it states (in part): i understand that answering "yes" to question 11.a if i am not the actual buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under federal law, and may also violate state and/or local law.

IN OTHER WORDS: if you purchase a firearm and intend to provide it to someone else for whatever reason, you have lied on the 4473. that is a felony in and of itself -- you could even argue that it doesn't even require the hypothetical subsequent transfer to take place.

[snobord99]

IN OTHER WORDS: if you purchase a firearm and intend to provide it to someone else for whatever reason, you have lied on the 4473. that is a felony in and of itself -- you could even argue that it doesn't even require the hypothetical subsequent transfer to take place.

It's not even arguable; the simple fact is that, legally, it doesn't require the subsequent transfer AT ALL. Once you check "yes" and lie on the 4473, the crime is complete. No other action need be taken. Whether a subsequent transfer occurs only affects the provability of the crime, not whether or not the crime was committed.

[strongpoint]

It's not even arguable; the simple fact is that, legally, it doesn't require the subsequent transfer AT ALL.

i know; i was hedging.

[maidendeth13]

That escalated quickly...


Anyways what I've gathered is that it's illegal but I am not going to go to jail. Unfortunately I'm not persuasive enough to get my dad to get it for me as a legitimate gift (it was worth asking) and I cannot afford two 400 mile round trips at ~17-18mpg to get this gun so it is going to someone else.

Hopefully find my 6" Model 66 locally soon though!

Thanks for the advice (the parts of it that wouldn't land me in jail at least).