Did I react Poorly?

[HatersLOVEme : )]

Please don't take this the wrong way but I actually think you weren't harsh enough to be quite honest and did your friend and his wife a bit of a dis justice / dis service by being caught up on caliber and his naive ethical semantics / views instead of opening his mind to the true weight of todays realities period .

In my opinion you really should have just taken the viable opportunity to tell him the real score / real deal that a person / persons with enough balls to break into his house are more than likely going be armed and not with a freaking Taser or a basball bat - they are NOT going to be concerned with their safety at all or worried about not hurting / killing him or not raping his wife / or taking everything they worked so hard for - that in fact true to the form of the worst in society their minds and hearts will be filled with hate, malice, greed and lust that with home invasions at a all time high and on the rise that there are also many more crimes with multiple assailants / attackers a taser / baseball bat / pepper spray will not effectively defend him and his wife from multiple attackers and will all be null and void if the criminal / criminals do have a gun / guns .

The choice they might just have to make or very well is / will be kill or be killed whether your friend likes it or not ! Is he willing to trade his or his wifes life for the criminals life because whether he realizes it in the light of day thats what he's doing indirectly . Tell them not to loose hope the choice to take a life to defend ones family and their self is theirs and theirs alone as a las resort but you'd be willing to help them train / educate themselves to do so and that your ultimately not willing to trade their lives for some childish points of view they hang onto neither should they be willing to lay down without a fight or the tools to defend themselves if need be - that it's time to grow the heck up and have a reality check .

[rojocorsa]

SAY NO TO TASER

No you did not react poorly, but forget Tasers...

...One day my sister asks me about Tasers. She works with a lot of cash and occasionally has to transport it. Her company allowed and encouraged carrying a Taser. She asked me what I knew about them. Aside from learning about them in a basic sense back in the military along with other less lethal weapons for crowd control, I didn't know much. Thankfully, there's a EMS/fire/LE/etc supply store across the street. So I went across the street and learned more about them.

First off, two models. LE (M18 and M18L) and a "civilian" model, the Taser C2. (The clerk didn't like when I joking pointed out that police are civilians too, which was even more amusing.) I didn't ask too much about the LE version, as my sister was interested in buying one of the cute looking C2 models. The civvie model is light, curvey and non-threatening looking. It's called the Taser C2, and is visually packaged to express the impression of "consumer electronics" instead of weapon. But hey, that's just aesthetics. Nothing wrong with that. So let's move on to why it's a bad product that is dangerous to the user.

It fires a single cartridge costing $25, which contains compressed air, wire, barbs, etc. And allegedly some kind of micro-ID thingies that can be used to identify a perp. There is no OEM training cartridge for the civvie model. Which means you CANNOT safely test the device unless you're handy with electricity and know how to safely ground something conductive. There is no way to turn off the juice, so it is risky to test the Taser on anything that is conductive and improperly grounded. Besides it being insane to never being able to safely test and practice with an allegedly life saving device, why is this worrisome?

If you did not read the manual, did not test the device and need to use it in self-defense, you will quickly learn that you have been hauling around a $350 ish paperweight. See, the device needs activation.

I swear to the gods, I am not lying. A weapon that needs permission before usage. I find the concept horrifying, personally, but I guess certain folks would love it. Here is the proof: https://activate.taser.com/c2activation/ You must pay an additional fee for a private company to conduct a background check. If you do not pass, the Taser C2 is permanently disabled. If the person processing the request makes a mistake or the necessary IT equipment malfunctions, you are out $350 for the device and another $10 for the background check. Since it is a private company, there is no oversight or accountability laws to govern its background checks. More worrisome, any device that can be remotely turned on can be remotely turned off. And since you can't safely test it, you have no guarantee that your unit will function as it is needed to function. If you somehow can safely test the unit, it is $25 per functionality check. There's plenty of potential possibilities for someone to over-the-air disable your Taser: the company don't like you, the police don't like you, accident on some computer somewhere, someone making a clerical mistake, hackers, Brady Bunch passes a law restricting taser usage by non-police, whatever.

Why is this? So if a felon buys a Taser, he can't use it. Yes, that is the company's exclusive justification for such a radical product flaw. Because no felon would lie and give false information to Taser's activation folks, or pay someone else to activate the Taser. Felons are known for their scrupulous honesty and for never lying to suit their own needs.

Let's ignore the fact that you also handed over your name, address, driver's license and other deeply personal information to a company. An identity thief's dream. I wonder how much they pay their data entry clerks? Enough that they wouldn't be tempted to earn some side cash selling your information? Let's also ignore the deeply offensive treatment of their customers. I'm sure the Brady Bunch just loves these people.

Well, let's move onto usage. The design is only practical if you have one attacker. It converts to a "stun gun" if the cartridge is expended (and the unit is not disabled), which is a nice thought and only slightly less useful than having a heavy rock. It allows you to zap a person up to 50 times. But the official usage doctrine for the C2 is to press the button (the C2 model gives shocks in 30 second durations), drop the unit, run to a safe location and call 911. So following that logic... the manufacturer specifically suggests the unit is near useless against more than one aggressor. Unless you carry multiple Tasers, of course.

A $2 knife is starting to sound like a more durable, better designed and significantly safer weapon. I'd buy my sister a full auto MP5 and pay an insane retainer to the sharkyist defense lawyer in the region before I could in good conscience pick up a Taser for her. Hell, I'd buy her a rock before I'd buy her a Taser. Thankfully, the tasteful PR DVD included in the product packet was enough to convince her that they are a really bad idea. It's a dangerous, poorly designed, and hideously expensive weapon with limited functionality. She's leaning towards a Keltec or a XD compact.

I would NEVER in good conscious support a company that puts out such a product from a safety, security, functionality or ideological perspective. In every respect I consider important, they are not a company I would consider doing business with and I am deeply resentful that they take my money indirectly through government purchases.

Personally and professionally, I find Tasers to be abhorrent. Not from a "don't tase me bro" anti-police way. Bit of background, I'm a "security specialist" in a generic sense. Information security, IT security, physical security, etc. When I look at something, I ponder all of the strengths and weaknesses. Tasers are the worst "security" product I have ever encountered.

I know the guy who wrote this (put his screename from the forum where I saw this text from). I don't think he is full of crap.


Perhaps one of those Kimber pepper blaster thingies might be a better non-lethal (which isn't the same as less-than-lethal (as some have died by police tasers because of cardiac problems and drug usage)).

[j1133s]

I was talking with someone about buying their first gun for HD. We were discussing a XD in 9mm for he and his wife and he asked about a .380. I asked him why .380 since it's more expensive both the gun and ammo for a "lesser" round. He said if someone broke in his house he didn't want to kill them.
I responded quickly "Don't buy a gun then, get a Taser"
He seemed a little taken aback and I proceeded to explain my response.
I felt kinda like a Dick afterward but was that to harsh?

You should tell him that as a person using a gun for SD, the intent is never to kill but to stop the threat. As a gun owner, I'd personally much prefer to avoid any confrontation (and this mean abadoning my house if it is doable); but if I must shoot, my aim is to stop the attacker and not to kill my attacker.

From there, you should tell him about the stopping power of 380 vs 9mm.

[Cokebottle]

Perhaps one of those Kimber pepper blaster thingies might be a better non-lethal (which isn't the same as less-than-lethal (as some have died by police tasers because of cardiac problems and drug usage)).

Except the Kimber Pepper Blaster is illegal in California.

IMHO, the most effective pepper device available for a Californian to legally carry is the Cold Steel "Inferno" 2.5oz.
It's a sticky foam type spray.

[rojocorsa]

Except the Kimber Pepper Blaster is illegal in California.

IMHO, the most effective pepper device available for a Californian to legally carry is the Cold Steel "Inferno" 2.5oz.
It's a sticky foam type spray.

Seriously? Even that? Dang. WTH is wrong with this place?

[Cokebottle]

Seriously? Even that? Dang. WTH is wrong with this place?

Yup.
You can only have conventional aerosol type propellant.
Pepper Blaster uses a pyro charge to shoot the OC at 90mph.

[2Bear]

He said if someone broke in his house he didn't want to kill them.

Fixed it for him.

[Spiggy]

If he's unwilling to offer greater violence in response to violence offered, he's better off going the pacifist route.

[stix213]

If he had responded that he wanted a .380 because of its reduced recoil making it easier for him to hit the target reliably, then I think you should have supported his decision. (Its better to get ANY bullet on target than a preferred bullet size missing)

Though his reasoning that he is more concerned with preserving the life of someone threatening his and his family's got the correct response from you OP. No one here wants to kill anyone, but if in a situation you have to fire a gun to save your family you don't want your gun choice based on what is best for the attacker.

[hunteran]

Have him watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg...&feature=share And keep in mind that each of these guys was carrying a gun in a "real" caliber (BG had a .45, police officer had at least a 9mm) and each of them STILL took multiple hits and remained fighting.

[stix213]

No you did not react poorly, but forget Tasers...



I know the guy who wrote this (put his screename from the forum where I saw this text from). I don't think he is full of crap.


Perhaps one of those Kimber pepper blaster thingies might be a better non-lethal (which isn't the same as less-than-lethal (as some have died by police tasers because of cardiac problems and drug usage)).

He is mischaracterizing the taser C2 to some extent. He is certainly full of crap. Tell him I said so

It fires a single cartridge costing $25, which contains compressed air, wire, barbs, etc. And allegedly some kind of micro-ID thingies that can be used to identify a perp. There is no OEM training cartridge for the civvie model. Which means you CANNOT safely test the device unless you're handy with electricity and know how to safely ground something conductive. There is no way to turn off the juice, so it is risky to test the Taser on anything that is conductive and improperly grounded. Besides it being insane to never being able to safely test and practice with an allegedly life saving device, why is this worrisome?

false false false First of all, the taser is not putting out electricity like dropping a toaster into a bathtub. There is nothing wrong with just firing a taser into a wood block to test its function. You aren't gong to get shocked from it by doing so. You can even taser someone and grab the person being shocked without you getting shocked. In order to get shocked you would personally have to make an electrical connection between the two conductors (either the two darts that get fired or the two exposed contacts on the end of the taser). Even if you were a dumbass and hit yourself with one of the two darts you still wouldn't get shocked unless you made an electrical connection between both of them.

Also if you want to practice with non-conductive cartridges, here is a link to the OEM practice cartridges your buddy claims do not exist.

http://store.itaser.com/taser0174-c20153-2-pack-training-cartridges-p112.aspx

You also can simply remove the cartridge and test the taser all you want. That way you get a feel for the ergo's of it, and hear what its repeated zapping sounds like. (Also the lightning bolt that zaps between the two contacts at the front is pretty bad *** looking)

And another thing, you certainly CAN "turn off the juice" anytime. You do that just by closing the door that you opened to expose the firing button. You open the little door to turn on the device, which activates the weak flashlight and the targeting laser, and when you close the door it completely shuts off the taser including if you were busy shocking someone. If they are still putting up a fight, you just open the door and press the button again for another shock to their system. The battery contains enough power to continuously shock someone for approximately 25 minutes, so even though taser recommends firing and leaving you could certainly wait for even the slowest of police response.

Another thing, it is simply not possible to end up walking around with one of these unactivated. Thats just ridiculous. It says to activate it all over the freaking thing, and you'd have to be blind to not notice. The guy who wrote that obviously have never once used a taser or he would have known better. And what's with this dude's paranoia about giving out his address? Some people need to man up a little instead of trying to hide all the time.

There is also nothing preventing you from carrying a knife in addition to a taser. Its actually PERFECT for that. You hit someone with the taser, and you can set it down and go for your knife. The taser will continue shocking bad guy one for the next 30 seconds even though you have moved on to the next guy. A gun can't even do that.

The taser C2 is fairly light weight and compact. It fits into any pocket with room to spare. I carry one 24/7, plus a knife, and I "might have" an LUCC .380. Seems like the best setup if you live in a no issue county right now.

[greasemonkey]

I agree with the face-value logic of your message but I think your delivery lacked a necessary personal/emotional connection, even though you may have been right (though I'm not really sold on a tazer for home defense). The bottom line is not that you have to or want to kill someone but that you value your life and the lives of your family members enough to be able to, in an absolutely worst case scenario, use lethal force to stop a threat.

It becomes a question of, if you're forced into a scenario and you have an option of watching your wife murdered or using force that may result in ending the perpetrator's life, which option would you pursue? It's a matter of how much you value the lives of loved ones around you and is more complex than whether or not you're willing to kill.

Personally, I don't want to ever even point my firearm at another human being, let alone have to squeeze the trigger. But even more repulsive than that is the thought of my wife being beaten/raped/shot because I don't 'like' answering with violence. No one is supposed to be 'okay' with lethal force but one must recognize that it's necessary as a last resort.

[rojocorsa]

That post is about 2 years old, maybe I should have mentioned that?


It could be that much has changed since...

[stix213]

That post is about 2 years old, maybe I should have mentioned that?


It could be that much has changed since...

They certainly could have come out with the practice cartridges since then. The rest of my rant stands

[1911su16b870]

The youtube link with Officer Jared Reston's testimony is an awesome example of warrior mindset put into practice.

Have him watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArDRg...&feature=share And keep in mind that each of these guys was carrying a gun in a "real" caliber (BG had a .45, police officer had at least a 9mm) and each of them STILL took multiple hits and remained fighting.