Help with grouping

[RoundEye]

I just started getting back to weekly trips to the after about a 1-2 year break. I use to do about 50rds. per visit, but I have recently bumped it up to about 100rds. as I have started reloading drills and such.

I just seem to feel that I have hit some kind of plateau and my grouping doesn't seem to be improving. I was talking to a guy at a local gun store that said he shot 1.5" group at 25yds with an XD .45, and I was like WTF, how come I can't do that?

For a while my issues was anticipation, so I got some snap carps and went at it every night. I still have a little bit of an anticipation issues, but I can usually catch it, take a deep breath and I'm good. But, still the groups are no where near 1.5" 25 yds. I don't spend more than five seconds or so to reacquire after each shot. I think my issues might be sight picture as I sometimes find it hard to recall what it looked like the shot before. As you'll see I am able to get good groups of two, three, or four, but never an entire mag. I am welcome any input, that might help me out.

All groups made with a Beretta 90-Two (.40)

This is three mags at 7yds, I was intending to aim at the red dot:



This center mass group is multiple mags (aiming at the red dot), and the group at the head of the target is one mag. Again, at 7yds.

[cannon]

Um... I can put 13 rounds of 9mm into an 8mm hole at 28 yards.

Yes, I am as full of it as the guy at the gunstore.

You'll get better advice from others but I'd be more concerned about the size of the group first. Proper stance, sight picture and smooth trigger pull and practice.

[Dion]

Hey man, I got this today at the range. Problem is, is that I only had my .22lr guns and this is no .22 bullet hole!

At least the dude in the lane next to me hit something. Poor guy was all over the place at only 7 yards.

[rockman]

Don't focus on the red dot to much, just relax and really get in tune with your trigger finger. From the looks of it, you are shooting left of your intended target. Try putting your trigger finger futher into the trigger. You are at least consistence with you groups.
Best of luck.

[9mmepiphany]

The guy at the gunstore was just being a jerk and puffing out his chest...while I'm pretty sure a XD45 will hold inside 2" at 25 yards from a rest, I doubt he can do it just standing and holding the gun.

It would not be unreasonable to expect a Beretta 90-Two (.40) to hold inside 2" at 7 yards...or at least stay on a medium Post-It note (2.5"x3")

What kind of ammo are you shooting?
Which grip are you using?
How are you pressing the trigger?
Which sight picture are you using?

At a quick guess, it looks like you're milking the grip and snatching at the trigger

This is what it looks like when you vary the pressure on the grip as you press the trigger (this is at 7 yards with a 9mm Springfield EMP; the flyer was the first shot)

[RoundEye]

What kind of ammo are you shooting?

It varies from white box Winchester to Blazer, but it's always brass case if that makes a difference. Today was Federal 180gr FMJ FN

Which grip are you using?

The grip on the firearm is OEM. I am right hand dominant, so I fire with my right hand left hand pressed against the opposing side with thumbs over lapping.

How are you pressing the trigger?

I pressed the trigger with the first 1/4 of my pointer finger. More towards the tip than the meaty middle. Sometime I do snap the trigger. So when I catch that happening, I tend to take a deep breath and remember to squeeze not snap.

Which sight picture are you using?

I use a three dot sighting system from post in focus with the target blurry (more or less), equal light on both side (I try to remember this), and flt acrss the top.

At a quick guess, it looks like you're milking the grip and snatching at the trigger.

What do you mean by milking the grip? I appreciate your help and feedback. Post-It Notes are a great idea, I think I'll bring some next time. Might help me get off the whole cut the "X" in half or red dot thing.

[Quiet]

Maybe this will help.

[9mmepiphany]

It varies from white box Winchester to Blazer, but it's always brass case if that makes a difference. Today was Federal 180gr FMJ FN

Sounds good, Blazer in usually consistent (aluminum works too) and Federal is usually GTG

The grip on the firearm is OEM. I am right hand dominant, so I fire with my right hand left hand pressed against the opposing side with thumbs over lapping.

Just for clarification, thumbs forward or locked down (left/right or right/left)...from the groups, I'm almost wondering if you are shooting Weaver instead of Isosceles

I pressed the trigger with the first 1/4 of my pointer finger. More towards the tip than the meaty middle. Sometime I do snap the trigger. So when I catch that happening, I tend to take a deep breath and remember to squeeze not snap.

If shooting SA, trying putting pressure on the trigger and slowly increasing it...don't try to make the shot go off when the sights are on, let the shot go off

I use a three dot sighting system from post in focus with the target blurry (more or less), equal light on both side (I try to remember this), and flt acrss the top.

As long as you are leveling the sights (across their tops) and balancing the light of either side of the front blade, you should be fine. Aim by bisecting the center of whatever you are aiming at

What do you mean by milking the grip? I appreciate your help and feedback. Post-It Notes are a great idea, I think I'll bring some next time. Might help me get off the whole cut the "X" in half or red dot thing.

Milking the grip is squeezing your other fingers (tightening your right hand grip) as you press the trigger...it is very common and requires a conscious effort to not do. Most of your grip should be with the support hand pressing into the sides of the buttframe.

Post-It notes are cheap and you can put several on the target at the same time...so you aren't masking the effects of changes to your grip or trigger press as you make them.

The smaller your target, the small group you'll shoot. Remember Mel Gibson, Aim small, Miss small

[RoundEye]

Just for clarification, thumbs forward or locked down (left/right or right/left)...from the groups, I'm almost wondering if you are shooting Weaver instead of Isosceles

You'll probably laugh as I had to look it up, but I am shooting weaver for sure. Is there an advantage with grouping when it comes to Isosceles vs. Weaver?

If shooting SA, trying putting pressure on the trigger and slowly increasing it...don't try to make the shot go off when the sights are on, let the shot go off

I rarely shoot double action, as I am still trying to get the single action groups where I would like them to be. I do try to remember exactly what you're say (Bang, Surprise kinda thing).

Milking the grip is squeezing your other fingers (tightening your right hand grip) as you press the trigger...it is very common and requires a conscious effort to not do.

I don't think I have this problem, but next week i'll look for that to if that is an issue.

The smaller your target, the small group you'll shoot. Remember Mel Gibson, Aim small, Miss small

Interesting thought. I guess if I miss the shots don't count in my group.

[IPSICK]

Dry-fire practice (UNLOADED) at home and see where the front sight goes to as you press the trigger and all the way until the trigger breaks. Front sight tracking during dry-fire makes you focus more on grip and trigger press without the distraction of recoil.

Then at the range, every once in a while blind load your magazine with at least one snap cap or dummy in the ammo you're pulling from and load mag then shoot. When you get to the dummy/snap cap you'll notice if you're anticipating recoil.

...

Post-It notes are cheap and you can put several on the target at the same time...so you aren't masking the effects of changes to your grip or trigger press as you make them.

The smaller your target, the small group you'll shoot. Remember Mel Gibson, Aim small, Miss small

Highlight color dot stickers are also cheap and available at the office store.

[9mmepiphany]

You'll probably laugh as I had to look it up, but I am shooting weaver for sure. Is there an advantage with grouping when it comes to Isosceles vs. Weaver?

It has been a major point of contention in the shooting community for a long time (since the 80s)...it depends on how surprised you are that I can tell you were shooting from a Weaver just by looking at your pattern of shots.

Ultimately it makes no difference, I can shoot from either and can teach both, depending on the intended usage. There are fewer force vectors variables in the Isosceles grip and stance, that will affect how well you'll shoot when learning.

You didn't mention which thumb is on top and which direction they are pointed

I do try to remember exactly what you're say (Bang, Surprise kinda thing).

If you get tire holding up the gun too long, just lower it and start over...don't forget to breathe

I usually have students shoot at a sheet with a series of 1" squares on it (12 on a sheet on printer paper). One shot per square to see how consistent they are...it isn't a training drill, it is only for evaluation

[RoundEye]

It has been a major point of contention in the shooting community for a long time (since the 80s)

Yea, I can tell. I did some searching, and the general consensus is that the ISO stance is better for matches and such, but the Weaver tends to be favored iIRL type scenarios.

You didn't mention which thumb is on top and which direction they are pointed.

The left thumb generally overlaps might right (dominant) hand and the thumbs generally point down range at the target.

If you get tire holding up the gun too long, just lower it and start over...don't forget to breathe

Yea, that happens from time to time. Also when my shooting starts to go to ****, I know it's time to go home.

I usually have students shoot at a sheet with a series of 1" squares on it (12 on a sheet on printer paper). One shot per square to see how consistent they are...it isn't a training drill, it is only for evaluation

That is an interesting thought. At the local range they have a taget similar to that where you're suppose to bullseye 10 targets at 7yds on a larger piece of paper. If you can do it, you get a T-shirt, and they put the target it up on their wall Someday......someday....

Thanks for all the feedback, I can't wait to back to the range next week.

[Chief-7700]

Use the trigger reset and your groups will get smaller.

[RoundEye]

Use the trigger reset and your groups will get smaller.

I assume you mean just release the trigger enough to allow the trigger to reset as opposed to letting the trigger all the way out after every shot?

[Chief-7700]

I assume you mean just release the trigger enough to allow the trigger to reset as opposed to letting the trigger all the way out after every shot?

You are correct.