"Sell me your gun under the table"

[warbird]

Odds are it is either a law enforcement trap or someone who is prohibited from owning a firearm for some legal reason. But there are a fair number of people out there who do oppose registering guns and I know a number of them. I have gotten lists from DOJ of what I was supposed to own and those lists had errors in them, mulitple errors. I have had gun stores over the years tell me if the gun has never been registered in california why would I want to spend the money now and potentially cause myself grief down the road? I even had a cop ask me why I was registering one that came from out of state and was "not here". "Unregistered" handguns in this state is a bigger issue than most people know and many people oppose registering all their weapons in case the government decides to strip the people of their right to own guns forcibly. But mostly people who feel that way deal in small groups among themselves because they know they can trust each other. They usually don't go out into the public venue. if the gun is registered to you then make sure your name comes off of it. And double check with DOJ although they will force you to spend some money to get the list and then try to correct it if it is in error. As for long guns the only name the state has is the name of the original purchaser when the federal form was filled out and retained by the feds. It is up to each party owning the long gun after that to keep records if you want tehm off your back. The long gun I registered a couple of months ago the state has no record of since they got rid of the paperwork once they confirmed I am not a felon. That gun comes up in a crime they will have to go back to the original purchaser off the federal form and track it from there. Lots of luck. Now is that a waste of your registration money or what?

[Sheepdog1968]

If the gun is a C&R long gun, a FTF sale is OK. If not, an FFL is needed.

C&R laws are interperted incorrectly from what I read here. If it were me and I had something that fell into a C&R category, I'd still want to do the transfer via FFL. As a seller, all it does is protect you.

[loose_electron]

Should've told him: "Yeah, I can do that. But now the price of the gun just went up to $20,000, since you want me to break the law and risk jail time for you. You got that kind of scrilla, right bro?"

I would not even joke about that one. I would guess that people looking to obtain a weapon illegally are willing to pay a hefty price premium for a weapon. Doesn't matter if its a handgun, or bombmaking stuff, or whatever. (I am sure weapons grade
uranium would sell at a pretty good price, just need to advertise it in Iran!)

That said, if you sell a gun, you want the gun transferred in legal records, because if it ever shows up in a criminal matter you are going to be in a heap of trouble.

Even odds the buyer could not purchase due to their record.

[Standard]

So what happens if a transfer like this does take place?
The first time I bought an AR, I bought it from a guy in socal...he shipped it directly to me by mistake, instead of to my FFL.
I told him and he said "shoot...well they aren't registered like handguns anyways, so you either just keep it, or send it back and I'll send it to your FFL."
So I sent it back to him, he sent it to my FFL and all was well 10 days later.
But What if I had kept it? I know that would have been illegal, but I'm speaking out of curiosity. Could any LEO have traced it and found out that there wasn't a DROS with it? I always wondered about that.

[Hoop]

I'd imagine they can trace a long gun the same way you'd trace any other item - from the factory to the distributor to the dealer and on and on. Pretty much anything can be traced depending on how hard they want to work at finding where it came from.

[Cokebottle]

C&R laws are interperted incorrectly from what I read here. If it were me and I had something that fell into a C&R category, I'd still want to do the transfer via FFL. As a seller, all it does is protect you.

How so?

There is no legal requirement that C&R long guns be transferred through an FFL. It's one of the few areas where California gun laws are decent.

No C&R license is needed to cash and carry a C&R long gun unless it is being purchased out of state. In that case, it can be shipped directly to the licensee, or the licensee can travel out of state and bring it home.

C&R handguns all must go through an FFL unless the C&R holder travels out of state.

Sure... the seller can insist that he transfer a C&R through an FFL. Some shops might even take the $35 and make the buyer wait for 10 days. Some shops will laugh and tell the seller that the FFL does not need to be involved.
The only thing using an FFL for the transfer does is guarantee that the buyer is not a prohibited person.

[Cokebottle]

I'd imagine they can trace a long gun the same way you'd trace any other item - from the factory to the distributor to the dealer and on and on. Pretty much anything can be traced depending on how hard they want to work at finding where it came from.

They would not be able to locate you unless the seller talked (and he probably would).

They can trace manufacturer to the FFL that initiated the first transfer.
From there, they have to VISIT the FFL and audit his records.
They have to manually search through 20 years of long gun 4473 forms to find the buyer.

Then they contact the buyer and ask if he has the gun. If he's smart, he asks for a warrant, whether he has it or not.
If he legally sold it, and doesn't ask for a warrant, then he can direct them to the FFL that he sold it through.
They again have to visit the FFL and manually search through 20 years of PPT paperwork to locate the NEXT buyer.

For a murder or terrorist threat investigation, they would probably do that. For a robbery or drive-by where there were no fatalities, it's not likely they would devote that much time to locating the current owner.

Of course, at any point in the chain, one of those owners may claim "Ya, it was stolen 2 years ago". That is likely the owner who sold it illegally, but with no evidence of sale or theft, all traceability of that gun is lost at that point.
Even if the guy he illegally sold it to later sold it legally, once there is a break in the chain of custody, there is no way to regain the ownership trail.

And on a gun originally sold before 1991, it could have been legally transferred 50 times before it was finally brought to an FFL for transfer.

[tileguy]

just tell the guy no and move on. if you think you should call LEOs and the moderators then maybe you should call your mommy also.it might have been an older guy that is uninformed.not that long ago it was legal to buy and sell guns at yard sales. who knows his intentions.

[gnatnoop]

why dont you just tell him that it is against the law and you do not feel comfortable breaking the law?

why would you call the fbi or the BATF?

[Cokebottle]

just tell the guy no and move on. if you think you should call LEOs and the moderators then maybe you should call your mommy also.it might have been an older guy that is uninformed.not that long ago it was legal to buy and sell guns at yard sales. who knows his intentions.

Moderator, yes.
LE, no.

Hearing it from a mod will lend a little more credibility to the seller that he IS asking for the right thing to be done.

[Seesm]

So OP is that for sale still? Cash and Carry right? :P

[santacruzstefan]

Maybe a bit off- topic, sorry, but what if grandpa died and his old pistol then came into possession of his daughter? When was the first year handguns were required to be registered? And is it retroactive?

[Lancear15]

When was the first year handguns were required to be registered? And is it retroactive?

I think it was in 92, and no it's not retro.

[fiddletown]

Maybe a bit off- topic, sorry, but what if grandpa died and his old pistol then came into possession of his daughter? ...

It is a long way off topic. Interfamilial transfers are specifically treated in the law. And certainly transfer through the court supervised probate of a decedent's estate under a will, or the court supervised administration of a decedent's estate without a will, are very different from one stranger selling another stranger a gun.

[tenpercentfirearms]

So what happens if a transfer like this does take place?
The first time I bought an AR, I bought it from a guy in socal...he shipped it directly to me by mistake, instead of to my FFL.
I told him and he said "shoot...well they aren't registered like handguns anyways, so you either just keep it, or send it back and I'll send it to your FFL."
So I sent it back to him, he sent it to my FFL and all was well 10 days later.
But What if I had kept it? I know that would have been illegal, but I'm speaking out of curiosity. Could any LEO have traced it and found out that there wasn't a DROS with it? I always wondered about that.

In the future, just ask your FFL if he would take it with the guy's DL. Mistakes happen and it is a waste to send it back to the guy to turn around and send it back to the dealer when you could just take it to the dealer yourself.

I have accidentally sent the wrong box to the wrong place a couple times. The upper box went to the dealer and the lower box went to the customer. Both times the dealer and customer on the receiving end just did a trade and the customer did their ten day wait. It gets signed into the book all the same.

There is no way for the state to know that you didn't DROS it, but long guns aren't registered and you are saving yourself maybe a $100 not to do the transfer? Is $100 worth breaking the law over? Just do the right thing on an non-registered item. The jack booted thugs won't be barging into your house for your AR anytime soon if probably not ever.