"Sell me your gun under the table"

[Interloper]

Don't know why, but one guy was taken away from this last weekends gunshow in handcuffs

Budget cuts must be getting bad for them to fore go the helicopter landing on the freeway maneuver.

[stix213]

I'd tell him sure you will, then give him the address of an empty lot 5 hours away as where you'll no-show him.

[MaHoTex]

replacing a water heater without pulling a permit is illegal.

Not an intentional thread jack... But... "Are you serious Clark?"

You really have to pull a permit to change a freaking water heater?

[Interloper]

Not an intentional thread jack... But... "Are you serious Clark?"

You really have to pull a permit to change a freaking water heater?

*cough*
Way off topic but yes, sometimes.

[tacticalcity]

amazes me how many of you think BATF is going to waste a sting on 1 long gun.... paranoid much?

You completely missed the point.

Selling a gun without a DROS is just stupid.

First. Why is he so eager to avoid the DROS? The fees (which are very small) or because he cannot pass a DROS? More than likely the later. So that means the guy is a scumbag who should not have a gun in the first place. Making you a scumbag for selling it to him.

Second. He very well could be the DOJ trying to build a case against the site where you sold the firearm and your bust would be just one of many peices in his case to get that site shutdown. There could be a much bigger picture, to which your bust is just one small part. Stranger things have happened. Just look at the controversy surrounding Craigslist and their Erotic Services section. Law Enforcement setup sting after sting aimed and getting Craigslist shutdown. The individual busts were small time, but the as a collection of busts they were used to force Craigslist to shutdown that section of their site (last I heard that was going to be their compromise). They also grabbed national media attention, making Craigslist look terrible. Not the kind of attention this forum or any gun related site needs.

Third. If the firearm is used in a commission of a crime it will be tracked down to the last dealer to do the last DROS, which if you purchased the firearm legally does have your name on it. So while it is not registered, it can be traced back to you if they have enough motivation to do so. At which point, they discover your crime.

Fourth. There is simply nothing about doing it under the table that makes it worth it. Everything about doing it under the table is a bad idea. The fee is very small, and punishment for circumventing the law if you get caught is pretty sever. Which includes your never being able to legally own a firearm again. Plus it screams that the buyer has some illegal purpose in mind. So why in hell would you take that risk for some stranger online? I wouldn't do it for anyone, not even a blood relative, my right to own a gun matters too much to me. But to risk all that for some guy you don't even know? That's beyond stupid.

[Dr Rockso]

Not an intentional thread jack... But... "Are you serious Clark?"

You really have to pull a permit to change a freaking water heater?

You have to get a permit to replace a boiler???

Yep, here's Sunnyvale's requirements. I know that Santa Cruz County has similar requirements, and I'd imagine that most if not all counties in CA do.

Another reason that legitimate plumbing businesses have a hard time competing with "Pedro's discount plumbing and landscaping"...Pedro will just tell folks that the permit is "included".

[flyer898]

I am assuming we are talking about a handgun. The practical reality is selling any gun (except C&R rifles) in California without going through a dealer and DROS is against the law. The penalty varies, however assuming the seller has no other record and they buyer is not a prohibited person sale of a long gun is a misdemeanor and punishable by up to a year in jail; sale of a handgun is a alternatively felony/misdemeanor and punishable by up to 3 years in state prison.

The statute penalizes the conduct of the seller and buyer (PC12072(d)) equally.

You don't know this person and you don't know their history. While this crime is all but impossible to prove absent a confession, as a practical matter by doing what they ask, you risk putting a firearm into the hands of a prohibited person and committing a felony yourself.

I would tell the person I have changed my mind and not sell them the gun. End of conversation.

[RedFord150]

Tell the seller you comply with all laws, period. As far as you know, the law requires the transaction to go through a dealer. You will be happy to meet him at the local FFL and he can address his questions to the FFL.
If the guy is simply confused, he will agree to meet at the FFL. If he is looking for an illegal sale, you will never hear from him again.
I personally do not like to start quoting the laws as if I was a lawyer. I would rather let the FFL explain the law. He probably knows it a lot better than I do.
If this were some type of a 'sting', your response about complying with all laws will get you off their radar.
Just my .02.

[PhantomII]

First. Why is he so eager to avoid the DROS? The fees (which are very small) or because he cannot pass a DROS? More than likely the later.

You missed one...

The fees don't bother me (too much) but I hate the 10 day wait.

I dislike the implication that I need to 'cool off' before getting something that I already have several of.

Buyers remorse? Maybe, but by the time DROS starts, it's already too late to back out.

[Archie B.]

He's probably prohibited.

Personally, I would never sell a gun to anyone who emailed me the non-word "Ima"

Bingo, I smelled the same poop on that one, gnomesayn`?

[Cokebottle]

amazes me how many of you think BATF is going to waste a sting on 1 long gun.... paranoid much?

You don't think the Brady camp, LCAV, or some other anti-gun organization is not above attempting to set up a forum member from Calguns.net... the support forum for one of the most aggressive, proactive, and successful gun-rights organizations in California?

Trust me... one of our members getting busted in any kind of semi-high profile case would be a VERY bad thing for what we are attempting to accomplish (and have accomplished).


This kind of thing happens all the time. I would suspect that at least 25% of sellers here on CGN have received such offers. I know of two people that have received such offers in the last 6 months.

It could be a prohibited person, it is not likely to be the DOJ, but it could quite possibly be an anti-gunner attempting to set someone up.

[Cokebottle]

Without doing a proper DROS, the gun wouldn't be released from your registration and re-registered under him. If he does anything stupid with it, it is traceable back to you.

If it's a handgun, that is true.
If it is a long gun, that is not the case. Long guns are not registered. If a long gun is seized, it's serial number (if it has one) can be traced to the FIRST dealer that sold it through the manufacturer. That dealer can then be audited and... in 20 years worth of paperwork... the BATFE auditor can find the original purchaser.
They would then have to contact the original purchaser, who would then say "Oh ya, I sold that gun through Turner's 15 years ago"
They then have to audit Turner's and find the next purchaser, and so on.

If it was ever transferred out of state to a state that does not require an FFL for PPT, the "chain of custody" is lost.

[Lucky Scott]

Sure would like to hear from the OP if it was a C & R long gun. The whole deal could just be a misunderstanding. Sometimes, sellers want to DROS a C & R gun that does not need to be DROSed.
I have had guys with old Mosins that "Just felt better" if they DROS the gun.
Of course, legally it is not required and from a c & R buyers stand, it is a hassle.

If it is a C & R long gun, then the buyer would not be out of line to suggest a cash transaction.

[FNH5-7]

If it is a C & R long gun, then the buyer would not be out of line to suggest a cash transaction.

Yup that's what I said.

[WokMaster1]

Don't know why, but one guy was taken away from this last weekends gunshow in handcuffs

That was the guy who showed up at the GS thinking it was the Exotic, Erotic Ball. That or people just got sick & tired of him saying "Two weeks" repeatedly.