throwing some feeler about a potential carbine course

[DDRH]

Nope, because of having to use the unconventional Monsterman grip and Bullet button.

The laws need to change here.

yes that does suck/blow

[cmonk518]

Unless you could pull some big city, county, or state law enforcement and SWAT teams to train exclusively with you, I would say the competition is quite fierce and might not be worth it if just catering to civilians. As already stated, you are going to find it hard to fill up a class of 20 all with m4s and ar15s the way you want to run them. I can just imagine the class being kinda crappy if you cant perform failure driven drills, tactical reloads, manipulating failures with high cap mags, and just reloading every 10 rounds would be excruciatingly boring and tedious to work like that in a high speed low drag type class. I'm sure you are familiar with many tactical instructors being in SF, if you were to ask them how CA civilian classes are in the carbine field, they'd probably tell you the same. And many, I don't know if its because of insurance purposes, body armor with level IV plate inserts are required for carbine courses and that turns away alot of people since everybody knows how much body armor with trauma plates can run up.

CA already has so many premiere tactical gunfighting schools and add to the fact Blackwater just opened up their new training grounds in San Diego, its going to be harder than ever. I don't know how it is in Northern California, but in Southern CA, the whole market is already quite dominated. In no particular order or rank, most take carbine classes at ITTS by Scott Reitz, John Farnam, Jeff Gonzalez, Rapagna, Trident Concepts, and the various gunfighting schools run by ex-Seals in the San Diego-Coronado area. Blackwaters new facility is just around the corner and they have ALL the contracts for special forces on the west coast, other armed forces, and other direct action units.

[Full Clip]

My comment was geared to the OP, who wants to know what kind of potential there is for a new outfit to develop a business in the California market. I think there's a nice niche for them to jump into (in addition to weapons configured otherwise) ..., since no one else has addressed it.

You're absolutely right, there is clearly a niche there. I didn't mean to suggest there wasn't, just that the OP's proposed class did not necessarily have to dance around the BB issue.
I would just suggest that if he was going to have a class, that it either be BB-based rifles of featureless rifles. Mixing the two seems like it would be a frustrating experience for everyone.
Personally, I would never want to be in a gunfight with a BB, and would go featureless even if I only had 10-round mags.
And just to clarify, my comments are in no way an attempt to denigrate BB rifles. I have one myself — an AR in x39 for which I have no full-cap mags — and I'm grateful that it keeps me legal.

[WeekendWarrior]

I for one am interested in a beginner class or classes. If your buddy can create progressive classes like Carbine 101, then upwards, it'll be great. I am in the SF Bay area.

+1 - Im in the bay to and would like to see a progressive course structure

[heycorey]

Roger that ...


ReconDoc242 - one way for your guys to get started in the California market might be to introduce themselves to some of the people who run the various rifle clubs and/or ranges down in SoCal. For example, I shot down at the West End Gun Club once and that struck me as a great place to run a dynamic tactical course.

Look in the "Competition, Action Shooting And Training" forum, here on CalGuns to see whose doing what and where. Then go meet up with some of the folks who sponsor and/or attend the events.

If you get to know the guys who run the various groups ... and they think you've got the right stuff ... you'd have a ready-made corps of shooters who are at least familiar with basic firearms handling and marksmanship and have an obvious interest in shooting. Many will probably have more advanced training as well. Offer up some introductory training (at an introductory cost). As your rep grows, I'm sure those students would pass on the good word.

If you build it ... they will come.

[tango5]

All these guys with the exception of one are still on active duty as green berets....plus with them being texan green berets they are bit out there.

True. But if i took the class and was telling some friends about it, and they asked who were the instructors, I think i would be laughed out of my circle of friends.
Buddies: Hey so that carbine class was pretty cool eh, who taught the course?
Me: Umm, Big Earl and Gillotine.
Buddies: Who the f**k is that?!?!?!
Me: I dunno, some high speed low drag spec ops guys, they used code names and wore shemaghs to cover their faces.

[Combat Diver]

I would love to know where the pic with the kid is taken. Or why is it photoshopped... 2001 is stamped on it, Gill was not in the military in 2001 right?

This could get ugly...

[ReconDoc242]

I would love to know where the pic with the kid is taken. Or why is it photoshopped... 2001 is stamped on it, Gill was not in the military in 2001 right?

This could get ugly...

I did not know him in 01 since I was in the Navy in at that time. I believe he has been in since 97 or 98 and went thru the Q sometime around that time....but i'm not 100% sure about those dates...I will ask him when and where that pic was taken and for further clarification.

[ReconDoc242]

Roger that ...


ReconDoc242 - one way for your guys to get started in the California market might be to introduce themselves to some of the people who run the various rifle clubs and/or ranges down in SoCal. For example, I shot down at the West End Gun Club once and that struck me as a great place to run a dynamic tactical course.

Look in the "Competition, Action Shooting And Training" forum, here on CalGuns to see whose doing what and where. Then go meet up with some of the folks who sponsor and/or attend the events.

If you get to know the guys who run the various groups ... and they think you've got the right stuff ... you'd have a ready-made corps of shooters who are at least familiar with basic firearms handling and marksmanship and have an obvious interest in shooting. Many will probably have more advanced training as well. Offer up some introductory training (at an introductory cost). As your rep grows, I'm sure those students would pass on the good word.

If you build it ... they will come.

thanks for the heads up. I am not sure how he will accomplish that since he is in texas. I personally dont have the time to do that for him...i'm sure he will figure something out.

[ReconDoc242]

True. But if i took the class and was telling some friends about it, and they asked who were the instructors, I think i would be laughed out of my circle of friends.
Buddies: Hey so that carbine class was pretty cool eh, who taught the course?
Me: Umm, Big Earl and Gillotine.
Buddies: Who the f**k is that?!?!?!
Me: I dunno, some high speed low drag spec ops guys, they used code names and wore shemaghs to cover their faces.

great point....I am sure someone else has mentioned this to him before...personally I agree that the more professional approach would be better

[Combat Diver]

No need to ask him that, he was in the Q course around 2004, 2005. Can't hate on a guy for trying to make some money but fake pics will bring this over the edge.

[ReconDoc242]

I completely agree.....now i'm curious about that pic too.

[ReconDoc242]

He just wrote back to me after I asked him about the pic, he says it was taken in 06. The date thing on the camera was broken. Hope that clears it up. Sorry if this caused any confusion....I know it caused a bit of confusion for me.

[M. Sage]

If you can gear your course for people who don't have a registered AR, you'd have a bigger potential client pool (in California). Showing people how to effectively manage a carbine within the constraints of having to use a bullet button would be useful for many. Otherwise you'll have to dance around the BB-issue.

I've got a registered AR, so I'd be interested either way ...

And do you mind identifying the name of the outfit in Texas ... and where they're located? I ask because I go to Texas regularly.

Tip #1: Go featureless. A pistol grip isn't a real advantage in a fight.

[tomd1584]

Tip #1: Go featureless. A pistol grip isn't a real advantage in a fight.

except if you have to shoot one handed, then grabbing a standard pistol grip is easier than a MMG.