9mm enough power?

[elx144]

Looks like they just got excited and missed. Or they zero'd their RMR's off the pistol sights.

****'n idiots.

[ar15robert]

i like 45 for one shot stop 9 is great too with modern ammo but i still feel it will take more shots.

If anyone doubts either rounds though lets see you stand in front and take the shots if you say they are weak.

[elx144]

i like 45 for one shot stop 9 is great too with modern ammo but i still feel it will take more shots.

If anyone doubts either rounds though lets see you stand in front and take the shots if you say they are weak.

I read this book called "One Ranger" to my kids. Joaquin Jackson shot a suspect a few times with his fancy Texas Ranger 1911 chambered in .45 ACP and the guy didn't even know he was hit because Jackson accidentally used FMJ range ammo. He kept shooting because the first one just went clean through the *******s foot and didn't stop him.

It's actually a pretty good book even though Jackson screwed us over when he was with the NRA.

[Reno-Kid]

Since the LEOs were dealing with a heavy steel vehicle, does it make sense a couple shot guns with slugs should have been deployed ? Neither 9 or 40 would seem useful. Are there guidelines which prevent LEO from shooting the tires?

[TrailerparkTrash]

I shot in a bowling pin match way back when. I didn't have enough ammo to use my .45, so I used my 9mm. The only heavy bullet loads I had were 147 Hydra-shocks, so that's what I used. I literally saw one bullet bounce off a bowling pin. You could see the smudge of lead on the pin.

As for the FBI, they were morons. Everyone that ever read a magazine article that owned a 9mm knew the worst ammo you could use for defense was the Silvertip. The bullet was way too soft and would over-expand on a down pillow. That the FBI thought that was a good round for every agent to use is laughable.

So your experience is with shooting one bowling pin and that makes you an authority on why the 9mm silvertip?s performance was lacking? 37 years later, the ammo performance world has come a long ways ahead. Much was learned as a result of the FBI Miami shooting.

So it?s easy to sit back today and with 20/20 hindsight and Monday morning QB all day long for an incident that occurred almost 40 years ago. The silvertip was the “hi tech” stuff back in 1986. It was also an “excuse” bullet made by the FBI for poor training, tactics and unfortunate shot (mis-)placement.

The 115gr silvertip fired out of Special Agent Jerry Dove?s 459 penetrated suspect Michael Platt?s bicep muscle through and through, then entered the chest cavity striking near the bottom lobe of the right lung, causing it to collapse and bleed profusely. That silvertip performed remarkably well actually.

The autopsy revealed massive massive blood loss as a result, which pooled inside his chest cavity. The silvertip actually performed very well with penetration and expansion, but missing the heart by about 3/4?s of an inch or so. A miss none the less to a vital organ, which could have resulted in quicker incapacitation than just a lung shot.

Upon autopsy recovery of that same silvertip bullet, it was noted as a projectile that did indeed ?expand? (and with evidently acceptable penetrate depth) as it was designed to do so. The coroner determined that that one shot alone (from the silvertip) was the fatal one that sent Platt toward the light in the end.

The only other Silvertip bullet hit was a second shot that struck Platt?s tricep and then entered the chest cavity and lodged near the scapula. Again, it missed any organs at all. That is NOT the fault of the bullet, rather it was an unfortunate and misplaced shot to a vital organ.

The rest of the NUMEROUS shots Michael Platt received were from .38spl +P loads and 00Buck out of a 12ga 870. Why didn?t those other (none 9mm) projectiles receive the same ?blame? as the silvertips used? None of the other projectiles hit any vital organs, yet some buckshot is believed to have grazed Platt?s head.

The Miami shootout was just an excuse for the FBI to get new guns and new bullets. Did you know that the FBI team that day also had MP-5?s and some AR-15 styled weapons, however only a few of those agents had those guns and they never arrived on scene until after the incident was over. But blaming the silvertip for the deaths of the two Miami agents has long been debunked as myth only.

https://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/platt,%20michael_report.pdf

[Barang]

True, but there is a caveat.

"Good shot placement" is determined after the fact. It's a retroactive assessment that the bullet hit something vital. When you aim at a target that not only doesn't have the vitals labeled, but also has vitals in different positions, when both the target and you are moving, the "good placement" becomes a random variable within parameters of the situation.

So, the question is about how different rounds work under the assumption that they will be hitting a "general area." You must look at the statistics that include "hitting the torso, but not hitting anything vital." You can't take the best case scenario of one round and compare it to the worst case scenario of another, you need to compare apples to, well, slightly larger apples.

i'm not a sharp shooter so i depend more on bigger caliber.

[TrailerparkTrash]

i'm not a sharp shooter so i depend more on bigger caliber.

Yup and the bigger the hole, the bigger the leak.

[OCEquestrian]

Since the LEOs were dealing with a heavy steel vehicle, does it make sense a couple shot guns with slugs should have been deployed ? Neither 9 or 40 would seem useful. Are there guidelines which prevent LEO from shooting the tires?

I don't think they they are issued/allowed to load slugs in patrol shotguns. I seem to remember being told that LASO wasn't allowed to either.

Since we are all armchair quarterbacking the incident, what they needed were patrol rifles with green tip!

[sigstroker]

So your experience is with shooting one bowling pin and that makes you an authority on why the 9mm silvertip?s performance was lacking? 37 years later, the ammo performance world has come a long ways ahead. Much was learned as a result of the FBI Miami shooting.

Are you hard of reading? Silvertips have nothing to do with the 147 gr Hydra-shocks I was talking about.

EVERYONE in the shooting game knew 9mm Silvertips were crap for penetration years before the Miami shooting. Either you weren't around then or you weren't paying attention.

[Djantlive]

How about mixing FMJ and HP in the same mag?

[BucDan]

230gr FMJ 45ACP worked in WW2 . Hell, it worked for over 100 years.

It's always about shot placement. I think Hornady Critical Defense is the way to go to deal with barriers and yet still be effective on target.

[WingDings]

45 fights end too quickly. 9 fights are better if you prefer longer 1v1 matches.

[Experimentalist]

I'll just leave my signature lines here.

[Sailormilan2]

I don't think they they are issued/allowed to load slugs in patrol shotguns. I seem to remember being told that LASO wasn't allowed to either.

Since we are all armchair quarterbacking the incident, what they needed were patrol rifles with green tip!

Right. When I was working the streets, and that was a very long time ago, the use of slugs required special permission. But then, that wasn't LASD/LASO. The range master showed us how to make "poor man's" slugs.............................just in case.

[beanz2]

No love for 30 rounds of steel core 7.62x39 out of a Draco?