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From the Firearms Tactical Institute (Dr Roberts)
"357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?
Several readers have contacted us to ask for our opinion of the .357 SIG cartridge, and its effectiveness for personal defense use, particularly when loaded with a 125-grain JHP bullet. Our usual response is that it demonstrates adequate performance, meaning that the bullets are capable of penetrating deeply enough to potentially inflict an effective wound. But it doesn't seem to perform any better than current 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP bullets in terms of penetration and expansion.
We feel .357 SIG appeals to people who are preoccupied with velocity and kinetic energy more than with producing effective wound trauma.
The velocity of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet doesn't appear to make it superior in penetrating automotive sheet metal, windshield glass or other hard barrier materials than existing 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP JHP bullets. In fact, .357 SIG demonstrates virtually identical performance characteristics as the other cartridges when fired through hard barrier materials.
To ensure JHP bullets wouldn't over-expand and fragment when propelled at .357 SIG velocities, most bullet manufacturers couldn't simply take existing 9mm 124-grain JHP bullets, install them in .357 SIG cases and pronounce the result as ".357 SIG 125-grain JHP," because this would be a step backwards.
Existing 9mm 124-grain bullets, designed for nominal 9mm velocities, would over-expand, fragment and under-penetrate. Essentially, they'd be re-inventing the 9mm 115-grain JHP +P+ cartridge. Therefore, the ammo companies had to design sturdier JHP bullets specifically for the .357 SIG; ones that wouldn't over-expand and fragment in bare gelatin.
They succeeded in designing such bullets, but the bullets appear to be so resistant to over-expansion that they under-expand when passing through clothing. As a result, in shootings involving clothed people (the most common scenario), the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet will more than likely over-penetrate and exit the body.
In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.
In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.
Perhaps in the future the ammo companies will be able to develop better 125-grain bullets for the .357 SIG. But until this happens we feel .357 SIG is a solution to a non-problem.
Feel the need for speed? You'd be better armed with a standard velocity (1100-1150 fps) .40 S&W 165-grain JHP."
Please don't let me or legitimate scientist come between the .357SIG fanboys and their KOOL-AID.
This subject has been beaten to death for the better part of a decade. Anyone can research Dr. Roberts work; which is perhaps the most widely accepted in ballistic studies. Military and LE Agencies alike accept Dr. Roberts work as the standard in Ballistic Science (RE: they don't rely on some bum who post pictures on AR15.COM with no scientific expertise).
Again, if the cartridge gives you a warm and fuzzy- so be it. But don't think it is some magic cartridge that does anything different or better than more popular standard use cartridges of the 9mm. .40 or .45ACP variety...
To quote a big red pitcher of beverage fame "OHH YAAA!"Comment
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No I didn't mean for you to cite someone's opinion or feelings, I meant show me some data from a legitimate study that would support your feelings or opinions.
sigpicComment
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No amount of data, which is abundant on the web BTW would keep you from your kool-aid. The quote was based on scientific studies conducted by the tactical institute. Simplified yes. You want the data do a Key Word Search of the Tactical Institue or Dr. Gary Roberts. The info is not anything new... Again, this subject has been beaten to death for the better part of decade. Though very few in numbers there are enough BELIEVERS out there to perpetuate the assumptions that the .357SIG is some kind of magic cartridge. Reality is that it offers nothing more than the standard and more widely accepted cartridges of 9MM, .40, or .45ACP...Comment
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I'm sorry that you don't have the data to backup your opinions and feelings.No amount of data, which is abundant on the web BTW would keep you from your kool-aid. The quote was based on scientific studies conducted by the tactical institute. Simplified yes. You want the data do a Key Word Search of the Tactical Institue or Dr. Gary Roberts. The info is not anything new... Again, this subject has been beaten to death for the better part of decade. Though very few in numbers there are enough BELIEVERS out there to perpetuate the assumptions that the .357SIG is some kind of magic cartridge. Reality is that it offers nothing more than the standard and more widely accepted cartridges of 9MM, .40, or .45ACP...sigpicComment
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Check out:
One thing that was said in one of the above articles was that it could be loaded to act just like a 9mm, since that is actually the bullet, but that it can also be loaded hotter as needed. It is also interesting to note that it was mentioned that there were learning issues with the round, so what was true at the start might be no longer true.
Disclaimer: I have never fired a .357 Sig, so response with facts, not koolaid claims.
I personally think that the koolaid claims are just an attack due to lack of something real to say.Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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A lot of rounds can be tamed way down or made into +p counterparts. The only issue usually is if your handgun can handle the power. The one nice thing about the 10mm is a full power round is smokin' hot, but most rounds you buy are the "lite" stuff. There's a lot of versatility here, perhaps even more than the .357sig and others for the auto-loaders.OCSD Approved CCW Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
CA DOJ Certified Instructor
Glock Certified ArmorerComment
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Broke away from having a "life" to satisfy call for data...
"Lot of myth surrounding this issue...Let’s compare apples to apples—below is factory test data from various Winchester loads in different calibers, Ranger-T as well as Ranger Bonded. How does the 357Sig compare in intermediate barrier penetration compared to the other service calibers?
FBI Test Protocols:
Bare Gelatin at 10ft
Denim, 4 Layers at 10ft
Heavy Clothing at 10ft
Steel, 2 pieces of 20 gauge at 10ft
Wallboard, 2 pieces of 1/2" gypsum board at 10ft
Plywood, 1 piece of 3/4" AA fir plywood at 10ft
Automobile Glass, 1 piece 1/4" laminated safety glass set at a 45 degree angle with an offset of 15 degrees at 10ft
9mm 127gr +P+ RA9TA at 1250fps:
Bare Gel: 12.3”/.64”
Denim: 12.2”/.68”
Heavy Cloth: 12.2”/.68”
Wallboard: 12.1”/.66”
Plywood: 12”/.68”
Steel: 20.5”/.40”
Auto Glass: 9.4”/.48”
9mm 147gr RA9T at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.9”/.65”
Through Denim: 14.5”/.66”
Through Heavy Cloth: 14”/.66”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.67”
Through Plywood: 14.8”/.62”
Through Steel: 17”/.45”
Through Auto Glass: 10.8”/.52”
357Sig 125gr RA357SIGT at 1350fps:
Bare Gel: 10.9”/.63”
Denim: 12.1”/.66”
Heavy Cloth: 10.7”/.69”
Wallboard: 15.4”/.48”
Plywood: 12.2”/.66”
Steel: 23.4”/.41”
Auto Glass: 10.3”/.49”
.40S&W 180gr RA40T at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.60”
Denim: 14.3”/.70”
Heavy Cloth: 13.4”/.64”
Wallboard: 13.1”/.66”
Plywood: 15.1”/.64”
Steel: 17”/.52”
Auto Glass: 12”/.61”
.45ACP 230gr +P RA45TP at 990fps:
Bare Gel: 13.2”/.79”
Denim: 15.2”/.78”
Heavy Cloth: 15.7”/.78”
Wallboard: 13.8”/.75”
Plywood: 14.6”/.77”
Steel: 20.6”/.53”
Auto Glass: 13.6”/.60”
How about bonded bullets?
9mm 124gr +P RA9BA at 1180 fps:
Bare Gel: 12.6”/.68”
Denim: 18.7”/.54”
Heavy Cloth: 18.2”/.56”
Wallboard: 11.9”/.64”
Plywood: 15.8”/.57”
Steel: 22”/.42”
Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”
9mm 147gr RA9B at 995fps:
Bare Gel: 14.7”/.62”
Denim: 16.5”/.59”
Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.58”
Wallboard: 16.7”/.56”
Plywood: 16.5”/.59”
Steel: 19”/.42”
Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”
357Sig 125gr RA357SB at 1350fps:
Bare Gel: 12.5”/.59”
Denim: 15.9”/.57”
Heavy Cloth: 16.9”/.55”
Wallboard: 14.7”/.62”
Plywood: 16.0”/.60”
Steel: 21.7”/.44”
Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”
.40S&W 180gr RA40B at 1070fps:
Bare Gel: 14.8”/.67”
Denim: 21.8”/.51”
Heavy Cloth: 19”/.59”
Wallboard: 16.7”/.61”
Plywood: 15.5”/.62”
Steel: 14.8”/.55”
Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”
.45ACP 230gr RA45B at 905fps:
Bare Gel: 14”/.73”
Denim: 15.8”/.67”
Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.68”
Wallboard: 14.7”/.69”
Plywood: 16.5”/.74”
Steel: 14.8”/.56”
Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66” " -Dr.Gary Roberts
Again, Dr Gary Roberts studies can be found all over the net. His data is perhaps the most widely used and accepted ballistic data in existence outside of the FBI [who BTW issue .40cal Glocks to their agents and Springfield 1911 .45's to the HRT members(?)]Comment
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Thank you for providing some data now do you have a link to the data/study?
At this point I'm not commenting on the data but would like to see the study it came from.
Edit:
Barrier Penetration Tests: Barriers should be barriers
Just looking over only the data you provided doesn't answer the question of which cartridge provides superior barrier penetration. The common defensive handgun cartridges (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto, .357 Sig) have very similar penetration results when fired into ballistic gelatin--that is a function of bullet design.
Firing bullets through barriers that do not provide a significant barrier is not a test of what the bullet/cartridge will do under more severe conditions. The data you provide do not tell us which cartridge has superior barrier penetrating capabilities.
Which Cartridge Has Superior Barrier Penetration
What I am interested in is which cartridge is going to be the winner of barrier penetration testing. When three of the above four cartridges fail to penetrate significant barriers effectively which cartridge is going to push it's bullet through the barrier and into ballistic gelatin with sufficient force to be effective in a fight?
Based upon the data, information and videos I have seen the 357 SIG is going to be the "last man standing" and when the .45 Auto, .40 S&W and 9mm Luger have been stopped by a barrier the 357 SIG is the one that is going to keep going and do it's job.Last edited by JDoe; 08-06-2009, 8:03 AM.sigpicComment
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What barriers are you so concerned about shooting through? Is your home lined with steel plated walls? As seen in the data provided by Dr. Roberts all the rounds tested have no problem passing through most common barriers. If you're that concerned about shooting through barriers that 99.9% of the people would never encounter, then a shoulder fired weapon in a suitable rifle caliber would be the best option.Comment
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Not all ammo is the same and it is important to know what firearms were used, but one thing that is interesting is:
The clothed penetration was deeper than the bare gelatin, perhaps because the round did not expand as much.
Since the .357 Sig is really a 9mm, it should do the same at the same bullet weight and load. If it doesn't, then there is another issue which is adversely affecting it such as the firearm.
What about tests with ammunition from someone other than Winchester? Or is basically one test enough to make a complete conclusion?Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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That is my understanding as well....one thing that is interesting is:
The clothed penetration was deeper than the bare gelatin, perhaps because the round did not expand as much.
You draw a reasonable conclusion however a 9mm Luger bullet is a different design than a 357 Sig bullet.
More tests are useful and one test is not, in my opinion enough to make a complete conclusion.
357 Sig haters like to spread a lot of FUD for some reason. For example the 357 Sig haters out there often state that the muzzle flash from a 357 Sig might blind you if you are shooting in a dark environment. That is FUD. The truth is that the muzzle flash is different depending on which ammo you use. Some 357 Sig ammo has nearly zero muzzle flash.
Other 357 Sig haters will offer up the suggestion that the 357 Sig will wear out a gun faster than say 9mm Luger or .45 Auto, etc. cartridges. That may be true but it is only a factor if you shoot a great deal and if you shoot a great deal you can afford whatever fixing your gun requires. If I am selecting a defensive handgun I'm not selecting it based on how much I can shoot it before I need to replace something I'm thinking about the 1 in a gazillion chance that I will need it to save my life.
Some 357 Sig haters suggest that a +P+ 9mm Luger is equivalent to a 357 Sig whatever that means. Personally I wouldn't want to shoot a +P+ 9mm round out of my 9mm handgun I'd rather have a handgun designed for the round I am shooting. Besides I can get a 357 Sig cartridge that gives 2230 ft/sec and 707 lb at the muzzle if I want to play that game.sigpicComment
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The 9mm luger bullet can be a different design, but from what I read it also could be the same. There is a lot of apple & oranges comparisons. Often missing from the tests are the type of firearm which was used, which can make a big difference.
An additional comment on the wear aspect is that if you shoot a +P+ 9mm, then the wear is also going to increase. You need to compare the same type of ammo to see if the wear is any different.
The funny thing is that I doubt that some here would want to compare revolvers to semi-auto bullets since revolvers do not have the limitations that a semi-auto has (it has to feed).
It does seem that there the people who don't care for .357 Sig seem to want to attack others (ie. kool-aid).
To be honest, this discussion has made me want to find my .357 Sig barrel (never used) and give it a try.Kemasa.
False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse.
Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. HeinleinComment
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Well I have a Glock 32 and bought it for one reason. I have read all sorts of reports about the round. After all I have read to me it is designed for one purpose.Penetration! google the one about the Leo's in Texas getting shot at by a truck driver. The .357 went clean thru the back of the cab and took the guy out. While the .45 his partner was shooting was being stopped by the door. Now would I call this an everyday shooter. No! But would I say well worth having incase of emense civil unrest. ABSOLUTLEY! No I wouldnt make this round my first choice but I would definatley recommend adding one to your collection.
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