357 SIG

[Adonlude]

Actually in terms of wound ballistics (expansion and penetration) the .40 might be a little better, and the 9mm is about the same. The extra velocity generated by the .357sig does not give it any advantage in expansion over the calibers mentioned above. And the extra energy generated (which still is not very much-we're talking about handgun rounds) does not cause additional wounding or any mythical "shock."

357 SIG was meant to duplicate the standard 124 grain 357 Magnum round and it accomplishes that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG

I often hear 357 Magnum being hailed as the #1 manstopping round so I find it hard to believe that 357 Sig is no better than 9mm.

[AJD]

357 SIG was meant to duplicate the standard 124 grain 357 Magnum round and it accomplishes that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG

I often hear 357 Magnum being hailed as the #1 manstopping round so I find it hard to believe that 357 Sig is no better than 9mm.

It matches the velocity of the .357 mag 125gr loads, but the bullets are designed so that they don't overexpand, fragment and underpenetrate like the mag bullets do. What you get is a bullet with expansion and penetration like most modern 9mm HP ammo. And again, energy at the meger levels the .357sig produces(and virtualy all handgun rounds) does not cause more tissue damage or so called "stoppping power." And as far as the .357mag being the #1 manstopper, that is ALL based on anecdotal evidence. There hasn't been one scientifically valid study ever conducted to back those claims up. The one-shot stop studies are very much invalid and anyone with a simple background in basic research studies can confirm this.

Here is a link to a document from the F.B.I. which discusses handgun wound balllistics. There are references in the document from actual trauma surgeons. http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

[kemasa]

You might want to take a look at the history of the .40S&W (10mm short) and see where it came from and why (FBI Florida shootout). The summary is that it comes from real world law enforcement shooting tests due to several FBI agents getting killed and others injured due to a lack of performance with 9mm and .45acp.

[locosway]

You might want to take a look at the history of the .40S&W (10mm short) and see where it came from and why (FBI Florida shootout). The summary is that it comes from real world law enforcement shooting tests due to several FBI agents getting killed and others injured due to a lack of performance with 9mm and .45acp.

I thought that shootout was the reason the FBI and other departments switched from revolvers to semi-autos.

As much as I am the fan of large calibers such as the .45 since it was designed to stop people better than the .38 that was in use, I must say that the current FBI report shows that only penetration is key. Any normal handgun cartridge is perfectly fine so long as it can penetrate 12".

[kemasa]

As I understand it, the FBI was using semi-autos (9mm & .45acp) during the shootout. It was not a issue with revolvers, although a lot of ammo was shot because the perp did not go down right away, even though the fatal shot was fired near the start of it.

E=mv^2

The .45acp is heavy, but slow. The 9mm is light, but fast. Both have issues. Also, if you are shooting through something, then you have additional demands. I have heard rumor that a heavy leather jacket can act as a "bulletproof" vest for a .45acp. I have personally seen the results of shooting a 9mm vs. a 45acp at a old disk platter. The 9mm went though, but the 45 just made a big dent.

The FBI tests might not really apply to most people, but then again it is good to know that you have a better option.

[locosway]

As I understand it, the FBI was using semi-autos (9mm & .45acp) during the shootout. It was not a issue with revolvers, although a lot of ammo was shot because the perp did not go down right away, even though the fatal shot was fired near the start of it.

E=mv^2

The .45acp is heavy, but slow. The 9mm is light, but fast. Both have issues. Also, if you are shooting through something, then you have additional demands. I have heard rumor that a heavy leather jacket can act as a "bulletproof" vest for a .45acp. I have personally seen the results of shooting a 9mm vs. a 45acp at a old disk platter. The 9mm went though, but the 45 just made a big dent.

The FBI tests might not really apply to most people, but then again it is good to know that you have a better option.

This is why I bought a 10mm, you get the speed of the 9mm and close to the mass of a .45.

[Dr Rockso]

As I understand it, the FBI was using semi-autos (9mm & .45acp) during the shootout. It was not a issue with revolvers, although a lot of ammo was shot because the perp did not go down right away, even though the fatal shot was fired near the start of it.

IIRC the FBI agents had 9mm autos and .38 revolvers.

[AJD]

IIRC the FBI agents had 9mm autos and .38 revolvers.

That is correct. Here is a link to the forensic analysis of the shootout:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

You might want to take a look at the history of the .40S&W (10mm short) and see where it came from and why (FBI Florida shootout). The summary is that it comes from real world law enforcement shooting tests due to several FBI agents getting killed and others injured due to a lack of performance with 9mm and .45acp.

Those are not correct assumptions. The F.B.I. did overhaul some of its training and looked at wound ballistics, but if you read the link on handgun wounding factors that I posted from the F.B.I., which they wrote three years after the shooting incident, they did not come to the conclusions you have stated in your last two posts. Well, kind of-they do state that ALL handgun calibers are not really the best as fight-stoppers.

And I almost forgot something. I'm not sure if they still do, but the F.B.I. SWAT team used .45ACP pistols as their sidearm for a number of years.

[JDoe]

Any normal handgun cartridge is perfectly fine so long as it can penetrate 12".

If you might have a barrier to shoot through the 357 sig is your buddy. .45 Auto has about the worst barrier penetration characteristic. Re penetration 9mm beats .45 and 357 sig beats 9mm and .45.

9mm luger, .40 S&W and .45 auto will all be stopped by a level II or IIa vest but you'll need a level IIIa vest to stop a 357 sig.

The New Paradigm: Police Trends Toward More Powerful Handguns
and the Mental Aspects of Combat Survival and Training

[locosway]

I was speaking from a HD perspective. As for penetration, I'll stick with my 10mm.

[tankerman]

I was speaking from a HD perspective. As for penetration, I'll stick with my 10mm.

If penetration is what I'm looking for, then I'll stick with my 420 grain hardcast .454's.

[ST5MF]

How popular is this caliber, it seems its hard to come by and its not cheap. Has it been fully adopted by law enforcement or any dept.

Or is it going to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Ive seen a Sig P229 Elite carry in consignment, a gun i would love to own thinking it was a 9mm i was disapointed to find it is this sig 357 caliber.

I know it has better balistics than the 9mm and is as good as if not better than the 40sw, but is it really worth the price of the ammo and the fact that you can not get it everywhere.

.357SIG is the "snake oil" of the 21st Century.

[ST5MF]

You might want to take a look at the history of the .40S&W (10mm short) and see where it came from and why (FBI Florida shootout). The summary is that it comes from real world law enforcement shooting tests due to several FBI agents getting killed and others injured due to a lack of performance with 9mm and .45acp.

[kemasa]

I was incorrect about the shootout having a .45acp, but it was mentioned in the FBI testing which followed:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm_Auto

http://guitarsalon.biz/10mm/10fbi.htm

[AJD]

I was incorrect about the shootout having a .45acp, but it was mentioned in the FBI testing which followed:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm_Auto

http://guitarsalon.biz/10mm/10fbi.htm

They do discuss it in that link, but they did not desire the 10mm because the .45 was somehow lacking as you say. In fact they specifically state that the intent was to bridge the gap between the 9mm and .45. From the time the .40s&w was eventually developed from the 10mm it has always been considered an option to bridge the gap between the 9mm and .45. Higher capacity than the .45 while at the same time offering better expansion than the 9mm but not the .45.