357 SIG

[kemasa]

Take a look at the test results, which are not in the first link, and see how each type of ammo did. There is not just one document which you can look at and make a final decision of the whole big picture.

[ST5MF]

As I understand it, the FBI was using semi-autos (9mm & .45acp) during the shootout. It was not a issue with revolvers, although a lot of ammo was shot because the perp did not go down right away, even though the fatal shot was fired near the start of it.

E=mv^2

The .45acp is heavy, but slow. The 9mm is light, but fast. Both have issues. Also, if you are shooting through something, then you have additional demands. I have heard rumor that a heavy leather jacket can act as a "bulletproof" vest for a .45acp. I have personally seen the results of shooting a 9mm vs. a 45acp at a old disk platter. The 9mm went though, but the 45 just made a big dent.

The FBI tests might not really apply to most people, but then again it is good to know that you have a better option.

I assure you a "leather jacket" is not a bullet proof vest. Again- more BS.

The .357SIG is no death ray cartridge. It was trumped up as a proprietary round and given at lower cost (SIG Platforms) to many agencies (i.e. TX DPS) at its inception. .357SIG is a hot 9mm with less capacity, more muzzle flash, more recoil and faster wear on the platform from which is launched. In essence .357SIG is a "GIMMICK" designed to separate a fool from his money....

.40S&W was a good idea when bullet technology was still in the stone ages. There are many really good 9mm loads now. As a result the .40 S&W is a solution in search of a problem...

While I personally prefer .45ACP there is nothing wrong with todays 9mm loads. BTW- the best and most proven semi-auto designs/platforms have always been in 9MM or .45ACP.

[ldivinag]

thank goodness i just picked up a snubnose .500 revolver...

[kemasa]

Take a look at the FBI Ammunition Test Protocol and ask yourself why they would test with clothing in two different ways if it was not an issue. The fact is that a .45acp is big and slow. I have seen it not go through things which a 9mm went through without a problem. Remember, as distance increases, the velocity decreases (see tests).

You are ignoring E=mv^2.

9mm and .45acp is older, so there is going to be more proven design/platforms, but that really does not mean much other than since the firearm are older, there are issues with how hot you can load that ammo and not blown up an older firearm.

There are those who recommend .40S&W. You might want to check out:

Business Partners: The Best Pistol/Ammunition Combinations for Personal Defense
Author(s): Kasler, Peter Alan

http://www.booktrail.com/Military_CombatShoot/Business%20Partners%20-%20The%20Best%20Pistol%20Ammo%20Combos.asp

[ST5MF]

Take a look at the FBI Ammunition Test Protocol and ask yourself why they would test with clothing in two different ways if it was not an issue. The fact is that a .45acp is big and slow. I have seen it not go through things which a 9mm went through without a problem. Remember, as distance increases, the velocity decreases (see tests).

You are ignoring E=mv^2.

9mm and .45acp is older, so there is going to be more proven design/platforms, but that really does not mean much other than since the firearm are older, there are issues with how hot you can load that ammo and not blown up an older firearm.

There are those who recommend .40S&W. You might want to check out:

Business Partners: The Best Pistol/Ammunition Combinations for Personal Defense
Author(s): Kasler, Peter Alan

http://www.booktrail.com/Military_Co...o%20Combos.asp

The .357SIG is NOT any different than the right 9MM, .40S&W, or .45ACP. They are all service pistol calibers. To perpetuate the marketing LIE that .357SIG is something more than any other more popular cartridges available it just that... A PERPETUAL LIE. As far as distance. Service pistols aren't LONG RANGE Rifles no matter how bad people may want them to be.

Hey, but at least you aren't citing "WIKI" anymore.

I don't want to start a flame but .357SIG is and will always be a "KOOL-AID" drinker caliber. I accept the fact that KOOL-AID drinking is here to stay. By all means drink the KOOL-AID but call it what it is... A KOOL-AID drinkers delight.

Refer to DOCGKRs studies they are perhaps the best portrayal of TRUTH when it comes to most common service pistol calibers to include the .357SIG.

[ST5MF]

DOCGkr said it best with the following quote:



"What does the .357 Sig offer which is not already available? Are we missing something?
We have not observed any better performance with the .357 Sig than with the better 9mm loads; the better .40 S&W loads appear to offer superior performance compared with the .357 Sig. Buford Boone at the FBI Academy and I have compared our respective test data on the .357 Sig--our results are nearly identical. The best .357 Sig load appears to be the 125gr Gold Dot JHP. In both the FBI testing and our assessment, it offers virtually IDENTICAL performance as the 9 mm 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP in both bare gelatin and through the various intermediate barriers. Likewise, the 9mm 147 gr Winchester Ranger Talon JHP offers similar terminal performance. The best that can be said of the .357 Sig is that it equals the 9mm in terminal performance, although at the price of less ammunition capacity along with greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon. Both the .40 S&W and .45 ACP make larger holes in the target and therefore have the potential to more rapidly incapacitate an aggressive adversary in a lethal force encounter. In addition, the greater mass of the .40 S&W and .45 ACP bullets offer an improved chance of defeating an intervening obstacle while still having enough penetration to reach the vital organs of an armed opponent. I fully agree with Mr. Boone when he writes that the .357 Sig is, “Not a great or lousy cartridge, just another choice.” -DOCGkr


So why would someone want to pay more and shoot less to gain NOTHING?

BTW DOCGkr = Dr. Gary Roberts

[AJD]

The fact is that a .45acp is big and slow.

You are ignoring E=mv^2.

So what if it's big and slow? If it has enough penetration and has good expansion, then there's nothing wrong with how slow it is. Speed is not the only factor that determines penetration and performance. Mass and senctional density actually play a much bigger factor. And why do you keep bringing up energy? If you had actually read the F.B.I. reports on handgun wounding (you know the F.B.I. you keep using as a reference for your argument) you would see that energy is a non-factor at levels produced by handgun cartridges. And once again, I will mention that the same F.B.I. had its SWAT officers armed with .45ACP pistols as sidearms.

With that said, most of the duty/SD calibers discussed, when used with modern hollowpoint ammo, are really fairly close in performance. And none of them is really that great in terms of wound ballistics to be honest. With most shoulder fired weapons it's a different story.

[locosway]

After reading that report I'll stick with my 10mm.

[ST5MF]

So what if it's big and slow? If it has enough penetration and has good expansion, then there's nothing wrong with how slow it is. Speed is not the only factor that determines penetration and performance. Mass and senctional density actually play a much bigger factor. And why do you keep bringing up energy? If you had actually read the F.B.I. reports on handgun wounding (you know the F.B.I. you keep using as a reference for your argument) you would see that energy is a non-factor at levels produced by handgun cartridges. And once again, I will mention that the same F.B.I. had its SWAT officers armed with .45ACP pistols as sidearms.

With that said, most of the duty/SD calibers discussed, when used with modern hollowpoint ammo, are really fairly close in performance. And none of them is really that great in terms of wound ballistics to be honest. With most shoulder fired weapons it's a different story.

What he said.

Professional "Gunfighters" tote a shoulder fired weapon for this reason.

[Jorge]

So does that mean the "Steel sheets of Truth" is simply a fluke? Just curious, because everything you guys have stated about the 357 SIG makes sense.

[JDoe]

So does that mean the "Steel sheets of Truth" is simply a fluke? Just curious, because everything you guys have stated about the 357 SIG makes sense.

Not a fluke. A 9mm Luger bullet is not equivalent to a 357 SIG bullet--they are different but both are designed as defensive bullets to be used against humans. Given that a certain level of penetration and not over penetration is desirable in humans it makes sense that JHP defensive bullets would regardless of velocity or energy penetrate about the same in humans or ballistic gelatin.

Check out this article and have a look at attachment number 2 comparing penetration of the 357 sig vs the .40 S&W after it goes through different barriers. Also note that the 357 sig is shot through a 3.86 inch barrel but the .40 is shot through a 4.49 inch barrel giving the .40 a velocity advantage in this test.

The difference that makes the 357 SIG a winner is it's barrier penetration capabilities. Where the .45 Auto fails to penetrate the 357 sig will penetrate and stop the threat and that can make all the difference in the world.

[locosway]

We all know a .45 isn't designed for barriers, even a 9mm with it's higher velocity has trouble with cars. If penetration of armor was desired then perhaps the FiveseveN should be considered. The only problem with that is for normal defensive situations you won't need to shoot through armor.

From the FBI reports any normal handgun round will do the job, although they are not the desired weapon of choice.

[yellowfin]

.357 Sig will probably go the way of the .41 mag.

Into my gun cabinet?

Anyway, it's nothing the .38 Super didn't already do 50 years ago and the 7.62x25 before that.

[ST5MF]

Not a fluke. A 9mm Luger bullet is not equivalent to a 357 SIG bullet--they are different but both are designed as defensive bullets to be used against humans. Given that a certain level of penetration and not over penetration is desirable in humans it makes sense that JHP defensive bullets would regardless of velocity or energy penetrate about the same in humans or ballistic gelatin.

Check out this article and have a look at attachment number 2 comparing penetration of the 357 sig vs the .40 S&W after it goes through different barriers. Also note that the 357 sig is shot through a 3.86 inch barrel but the .40 is shot through a 4.49 inch barrel giving the .40 a velocity advantage in this test.

The difference that makes the 357 SIG a winner is it's barrier penetration capabilities. Where the .45 Auto fails to penetrate the 357 sig will penetrate and stop the threat and that can make all the difference in the world.

Ironically most of what it cited by the .357SIG "kool-aid drinkers" is by "KOOL-AID pourers."

I will stick with what the professionals at the FBI academy and Dr.Gary Roberts' studies find.

If shooting the .357SIG gives one a warm and fuzzy- buy all means. Again, it offers nothing that A Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P doesn't.

The .357SIG is much closer to a .38SPL +P than to a true .357 MAG. ".357SIG is not a lousy choice for a duty round; just another choice. It does everything a Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P does at the expense of lower capacity, more recoil/flash, faster wear on the platform etc; etc;"

Please don't let me or the experts get between .357SIG shooters and their KOOL-AID.

[kemasa]

I really like the response about wiki, as if just saying that means that the information there is false without actually having any proof that is the case. The same is true for the koolaid comments. There are differences in the rounds, but that does not mean much unless it buys you something, based on how you intend to use it, and the only way you will know that is if you have real testing done. One thing to be said about the 357Sig is that it came out after the FBI tests, which gives something to actually test against rather than just random reasons for the round being what it is.

Can anyone explain why the size and weight are what they are for a 9mm and/or .45acp? Also, why the size of the brass is what it is? If not, then why do people blindly defend them against newer ammunition? Perhaps it is because what they are used to.

I actually own a .357Sig, but only bought it because it was cheaper and available. I replaced the barrel with a .40S&W and due to this I have never shot .357Sig nor do I have any ammo for it. I am not even sure of where the barrel is right now :-). That does not mean that those who developed it did not have a reason/goal by creating it. Perhaps it is just a money issue, but then again there could be more to it than that.