Believe In Constitutional Carry?

[bwiese]

The world was a different place back then, people were different and guns were used differently.

Sounds like an anti.

And with Bruen, THT (text/history/tradition) rules are taking over.

Rights are rights, sonny. Besides, CA has a gun safety test for FSC cards.

Anyone who can't learn gun safety basic prob shouldn't have a drivers' license.

[audiophil2]

LOL so your response to my argument is to make a smart comment back.

LOL really show your maturity level,

Just because I have a different view and I based it off of fact of what I have seen at CCW classes with people training, and other things.

You can have your view all you want. It does not mean you can change the 2A. It's perfectly clear what is legal and what has been made illegal or a paid privilege.

Of course if your opinion was right there should be blood in the streets from all the untrained gun carriers that have used guns in self defense.

When you can say your opinion is better than the guys that wrote the 2A then my response will be more respectful. Til then you are just another useful tool of the anti 2A movement. Glad 26 states disagree with you. Soon it will be all.

[chrisw]

God gave you the right and I am all for it.

I have also attended at least a couple ccw/ guard card qualifications where people couldn't hit the damn target

A right is a right. A hell of a lot of people can't vote for shish but we still let them vote

[benjamin101677]

Sounds like an anti.

And with Bruen, THT (text/history/tradition) rules are taking over.

Rights are rights, sonny. Besides, CA has a gun safety test for FSC cards.

Anyone who can't learn gun safety basic prob shouldn't have a drivers' license.

I am anti carry without training; I have seen too many people in CCW classes that had 0 clue about things, have no idea when to use force when not to use force. The questions and beliefs that some people have, that the CCW instructors are at least allowed a opportunity to address may have done good.

The life saved with training may just be my life. I have been a deputy sheriff investigating a incident at night when someone scared home owner who had no real training randomly opened fire on us. Could have easily been killed by him.

I think people argue for constitutional carry without thinking about everything A to Z.

[chrisw]

Hell, bwiese voted for jerry brown and he still gets to post

[benjamin101677]

You can have your view all you want. It does not mean you can change the 2A. It's perfectly clear what is legal and what has been made illegal or a paid privilege.

Of course if your opinion was right there should be blood in the streets from all the untrained gun carriers that have used guns in self defense.

When you can say your opinion is better than the guys that wrote the 2A then my response will be more respectful. Til then you are just another useful tool of the anti 2A movement. Glad 26 states disagree with you. Soon it will be all.

I would be very shocked if constitutional carry goes to more states, just because of the number of guns in play and carried in states there are going be more wrongful shootings / unjustified shootings which will highlight the news.

[boroberson]

I?m curious about states where CC is legal. Is a certain level retention holster required? I watched a video where a legal gun owner was carrying on a thigh holster and a POS took the gun right out of the holster and ran off. I believe in CC. But there is definitely a larger level of responsibility for the gun owner. Curious if it?s a law

[benjamin101677]

I seriously don't know why this is even a thread as it is never going happen, California never going allow constructional carry.

Did you see how when California is now required to allow counties to give out CCW's that they are going to amend the rules for CCW and put a whole list of places that the CCW is not allowed. Just about destroying the idea of a CCW.

Does anyone else realize that were arguing, over something that no matter you opinion anti or pro constitutional carry it's not going happen in California.

California is a lost cause for guns

[CGZ]

I?m curious about states where CC is legal. Is a certain level retention holster required? I watched a video where a legal gun owner was carrying on a thigh holster and a POS took the gun right out of the holster and ran off. I believe in CC. But there is definitely a larger level of responsibility for the gun owner. Curious if it?s a law

It appears only Mississippi has holster requirements. This is what I was able to find on Wiki's constitutional carry page

Mississippi
In 2013, the Unlicensed Open Carry Bill was passed to clarify that no permit was needed to open carry at the age of 18+ for residents and non-residents, it was clarified by the Mississippi Supreme Court that the Right to Open Carry was guaranteed by the Mississippi State Constitution. As of July 1, 2015, the concealed carry law was amended to say "no license shall be required under this section for a loaded or unloaded pistol or revolver carried in a purse, handbag, satchel, other similar bag or briefcase or fully enclosed case."[48] On April 15, 2016, the law was further expanded to include belt and shoulder holsters and sheaths.[49][50] This effectively allows for constitutional carry in Mississippi for residents and nonresidents age 18+. However, some forms of concealed carrying would still require a permit (e.g. Mexican carry[Note 1] or concealed in an ankle holster).

Also Texas when open carrying a handgun, though it doesn't specify the type of holster required.

Texas
....
Open carry requires a holster.
....

[BillSmith]

Constitutional Carry is a bacon thing.

[audiophil2]

Legality & depth of legal risk has nothing to do with frequency of prosecution.

Expect the antis to use this further with referrals to US attorneys (just as
we have see Ca DOJ refer stuff to US Attorneys [like in the Sacto cop gun
flipping cases 12+ yrs ago.]

Please read this memo from BATF to the Oklahoma 2A Association:

https://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/BATFLetterONGFSZ2013.pdf

This is NOT from an 'agent' and is representative of policy details and is
a fair legal analysis.}

Remember, the real issue is what happens if you have an SD situation
in a GFSZ.





ATF agents' knowledge about risk of prosecution is lame, and fairly
legally irrelevant.



GFSZ is a Federal law, not a state law. Local yokel opinion is again irrelevant.

Local cops don't enforce Fed law other than referral nor can they stop Fed law from being enforced. Some states do also have their own separate GFSZ state-
level laws which may differ/be similar to Fed law.




Fine, you do it . If you say there is no risk, you are just plain wrong.

You are beyond clueless on how the real legal system works.

The cop has to decide if he wants to arrest. They hate paperwork so usually they don't. But they hate being interrupted, lied to, or humiliated even more so a guy jaywalking can be tossed in jail while a drug dealer will walk based on the cops mood. Since I actually worked with local PD, ATF, DEA, SS, CBP, and pretty much every other federal agency I have seen this plenty of times.

Then the prosecutor has to decide if he wants to charge. They don't want the work. They don't want to lose. They don't want the bad press when they don't prosecute. I've seen this as well. To the point that a local prosecutor actually asked the government agency I was working for if we wound turn a blind eye to the drugs we were encountering because they did not want to prosecute for minor quantities. They wanted us to flush drugs down the toilet because their storage lockers at the police station were overfilling.

Then you have to get the local agencies to cooperate with the FED. No one cooperates with anyone. They all want to have some publicity for what they do and some statistics. I worked with them all. They don't tell each other anything. That was the whole reason they created the joint terrorism task force. They were made to share Intel after 911. So after 911 I found read reports about pipe bombs found in suburbs that had nothing to do with my job. Or see pictures of new weapons found on the other side of the globe used in jails.

That is why guns charges like mg possession, straw purchases, dealing without a FFL rarely get prosecuted on the federal level. ATF has almost zero interest in civilians. They only want to close gun dealers. Civilians they just harass and asset forfeiture their stuff. For example there was a guy a few miles from me that sold guns at a flea market. Not just a few guns. He had 3 tables with about 30 guns. He had banners like he was a gun shop. All at the intersection of a main road. Local PD came in as scouts to see the table and case the market. Then about 15 black tahoes pulled up with a few sheriffs cars. ATF seized all his guns. Told him he cound either handnthem over or get arrested. He handed them over. About $15,000 in guns. His lawyer told him he cound pay $10k to get them back but it was no guarantee so he ciumd be out an additional $10k.

Please don't talk what you no nothing of. I've dealt with all this stuff. I caught a guy with drugs that once handed over to DEA shut down a 4 state hash and meth operation. DEA sent me pics of a pot grow in Ukiah I helped by finding 1 guy. They had 2500 gallon rain water containers filled with diesel and 2 generators the size of a U-Haul in a barn.

The gun stuff is even less interesting since they don't like to prosecute. They want criminals with guns. When you can say you were part of fast and furious like i was and had to help carry 50cal M2s into landscaping trucks then you can tell me about gfsz laws and good guys. When my friend and I tried to stop selling gto the cartel ATF told him they would revoke his FFL. Same happened with other ffls in our area.

Same thing happened with my friends at Garwood industries. They made mini guns. ATF made them sell to cartels and then when ATF was down with them they set them up and prosecuted.

Telling me to shoot someone in defense in a school zone is beyond stupid. I have nothing to prove. You are reaching so far to prove a law that I doubt has ever been charged. I'd have a hard time finding an example of someone in a self defense shooting in the gfsz yet alone an actual charge brought up. But live in your .00001% chance world so you can be "right". I'll live in reality where this simply won't happen unless I also win the Powerball the same day.

[audiophil2]

I am anti carry without training; I have seen too many people in CCW classes that had 0 clue about things, have no idea when to use force when not to use force. The questions and beliefs that some people have, that the CCW instructors are at least allowed a opportunity to address may have done good.

The life saved with training may just be my life. I have been a deputy sheriff investigating a incident at night when someone scared home owner who had no real training randomly opened fire on us. Could have easily been killed by him.

I think people argue for constitutional carry without thinking about everything A to Z.

As a former gun dealer I've had plenty of guns flag my body by idiots. Same with loaded guns at gun ranges. I've had friends bring their friends to our range and had them flag me and my son. One guy did this to my friend. I told my friend " your buddy just flagged you". He apologized and did it again 15 minutes later. Friend laughed it off. Then I got flagged and told the guy not to flag me. We were on my friends range next to mine to I told my friend to make the flagging stop. Then he flagged my kid so I got pissed. I told the guy he was dangerous and should not be handling guns. I said my kid was the last straw. I told him and my friend that if he flags me or my kid again I will take it as a deadly threat and stop the threat. He stopped shooting. He never came out again.

I understand gun safety but my opinion and your opinion does not trump the 2A. All you can do is advocate for training. Tell folks to do NRA training. Lots of places do free training. Anytime I see unsafe handling I train the person. Most of the time they appreciate it. I don't belittle them. I don't freak out. Hard to freak out when you habe had loaded guns pointed at you dozens of times and have been shot at.

[audiophil2]

I would be very shocked if constitutional carry goes to more states, just because of the number of guns in play and carried in states there are going be more wrongful shootings / unjustified shootings which will highlight the news.

Gun permits date back to the racist Jim crow laws. If the voting democrats wake up one day and realize their masters want them defenseless just like the babies they want to murder they might start wanting those guns and vote.

There will always be negligent discharges. Just like there will always be kids drowning in pools. Can't take stuff away from the good folks because a few innocent folks got screwed over.

In a perfect world there would be no guns needed. I've been in some bad areas and even had a gun pulled on me in a robbery. Does not mean I want guns banned or restricted. I want guns for everyone or no guns for anyone.

[bwiese]

I am anti carry without training;

You should let your employer know.
You should let your customer base know so they can & will shop elsewhere.

I have been a deputy sheriff ...

There's your sign. We don't let cops determine our civil rights. Cops in
fact have been anti-2A especially in California for ages. Now that they're
starting to get burned like us, they're coming around a bit.


Rights are rights sonny.
People traded their lives for freedom.
Too many instances of depts using arbitrary standards to deny.

If the illegal carriers (felons/5150s) can, why can't Joe Blow?

[bwiese]

You are beyond clueless on how the real legal system works.

How many people have you gotten outta jail?
Are you part of any organization doing legal work?
Know any gun lawyers?

Again, READ THAT MEMO. YOU ARE AT RISK IN A SCHOOL ZONE if
you don't have a state/local CCW.

The cop has to decide if he wants to arrest.

They cop may not arrest for Fed charges. and in a SD situation where
an individual used/displayed gun, he+his attorney is going to have to make statements to the local yokels to get out of *state* assault/homicide charges.
Once those items are in the official record of the competent authority - even
if he easily/justifiably walks on state charges - an Asst US Attorney can decide
to grab the Fed case, all nicely wrapped.

Please o please o please talk to a defense attorney.

The last guy that told me "aww they ain't bustin' for that" ended up
losing his FFL and his gun biz, had Fed sentence and piles of fines.

Then the prosecutor has to decide if he wants to charge.

Local prosecutor may entirely release but that has nothing to do with a
politicized Asst US attorney "getting tough on gun crime".

BTW, Fed GFSZ law does not make any exemption for LEOSA etc.

Telling me to shoot someone in defense in a school zone is beyond stupid.

You failed to read. I said IF SOMEONE shot someone (or displayed gun etc)
such that LE involvement occurred, the statements by the individual used
to get him out of trouble on a local basis can be used against him in a Fed
case

Reading is fundamental.

I have nothing to prove. You are reaching so far to prove a law that I doubt has ever been charged.

RTFL. There have been busts for GFSZ violations. Yes, it's not everyday but
you are at risk of losing your gun rights. It's significant enough that Sen
Thomas Massie has proposed a bill getting rid of it.

Any National Reciprocity will need GFSZ 'fixed' to be useful.
If more and more people use constititional carry, some fraction will be
entangled by GFSZ law.

Remember very few people get in trouble for 17" barrels on shotguns,
but ask Randy Weaver.