Gun under pillow a death sentence

[smittty]

should add that all legal fees would be paid by the police if it is found that the person who defended themselves in the dwelling during said police raid is innocent from whatever the warrant was covering. And no criminal or civil punishment/lawsuits/charges for any injury/death of any officers that was incurred during the raid can be brought against the person.

also if any harassment from the local pd occurs after the court case, it would mean an a fine of a TBD monetary amount is taken out of the police budget and given to said person.

Make the police pension fund fair came to the victims families, see how quick they fall inline to give everyone equal consideration!

[Dan_Eastvale]

I’m about to install a smart front door lock. I’m going to paint the door and hardware re enforce it against kick ins at the same time. The noise will give me time to react as I sleep with the bedroom door open and am a light sleeper.

[Sir Toast]

Well yeah what kind of idiot would actually sleep with a gun under his pillow.

I did for years. I didn't have a problem with it, especially because I wasn't dealing drugs.

[seaweedsoyboy]

That would be the last thing I'd use and the first thing I'd get rid of.

It's 2am and you need to respond. What are you going to grab having awoken from a deep sleep, pepper spray? IMO the only thing that should be there is the pistol so that you aren't fibbly fumbling trying to reach it. Looking at that setup it's just a mess waiting to happen. No matter how much you practice, when you reach for the gun there are two things right next to it, neither of which are going to do you much good. Even if you emptied the magazine, are you going back to grab the extra or maybe you unloaded all from the comfort of your bed.

Think these things through and don't fall for the marketing. Ask yourself some basic questions:

Can I get to the gun quickly without something else in the way (from a deep sleep or any sleep)
Why do I need spray right next to the gun - am I really going to grab the spray in the middle of the night and use that first?


But to that pepper spray. This comes up quite often, having the pepper spray readily available as if anyone here in a noon-LE event is going to have the time to decide which to use AND if the spray doesn't work still have time (because you know, now it's a lethal force event) to draw the gun.

Then you need to drop the spray canister and just where does it go or are you puttiing it back into the holster nice and neat? If you drop it then it's something someone else can use against you, like the jerk who happens to think you shouldn't have a gun and then they spray you. Ot; are you now going to have to watch the BG AND the spray canister and someone who is reaching for it?

Back on point with that setup. In what situation can you imagine reaching for the spray instead of the gun? In no event must you shoot, that is a decision you make. When you grab that spray you've already made a decision not to shoot but instead try spray. And what happens when it doesn't work? Seriously, what are you going to do?

There is no requirement for an escalation from hands and feet to spray to gun. You are not the police.

All people who carry spray when they have a CCW or as in this case, right next to the gun so that it's practically in the way is create additional danger to themselves. There is no "Well, I tired the spray and it didn't work so then I drew my gun" because if the spray doesn't work you're probably not going to be around to talk about it.

Agree up to the bolded. Not every defensive situation in public warrants drawing a firearm/lethal force. OC is a perfectly reasonable and even wise thing to EDC, CCW or no CCW.

[IVC]

But to that pepper spray. This comes up quite often, having the pepper spray readily available as if anyone here in a noon-LE event is going to have the time to decide which to use AND if the spray doesn't work still have time (because you know, now it's a lethal force event) to draw the gun.

I think you'll find that the "pepper spray" in the photo might have a light bulb and some batteries in it...

[SharedShots]

Agree up to the bolded. Not every defensive situation in public warrants drawing a firearm/lethal force. OC is a perfectly reasonable and even wise thing to EDC, CCW or no CCW.

So I ask seriously, if you take the spray out and it doesn't work your option is what? Spray isn't instantaneous of compromised people and certain people aren't affected by it. So follow me here:

BG is going to attack you. First, if you are carrying a gun and the BG gets a hold of you the risk is he takes your gun, Rambo are exempt. But ok, you take out the spray. What are your hands or at least one hand doing, what are you looking at? Those are precious seconds and it's your life in the balance. You aren't there to apprehend anyone, you are defensive.

Seconds go by. You could just spray and drop the canister and then draw but still, in that second or two someone close enough to be sprayed can close the distance with you and you are in mid draw, no one is that fast and now you are fighting for your own gun.

Remember, this isn't someone 30 feet away, spray probably isn't going to work anyway.

What is the purpose of the spray? No one seems to talk about that. What is spray going to do that you already drawn and ready will not? If they were intent on harming your or killing you then lethal force is justified most likely so why spray? If the BG is that far away then you can draw and run too knowing you have the ultimate in self defense you can possibly have on your person.

SO, 1...2...3...spray no workie. Now what? Draw? If it didn''t work the BG is going to know it long before you do because the BG feels and you observe. Also, a determined BG who has gone through this before isn't going to stop from spray. Its a gamble and the stakes are your life.

I think you'll find that the "pepper spray" in the photo might have a light bulb and some batteries in it...

No difference. You have two hands. You are in bed (which is where this setup is handing off the side). You wake up and reach over and grab what? That light bulb and battery are just as much in the way as a spray canister right?

With that setup are you reaching over with two hands, one to grab the pistol and one the light (or spray)? Try it and see how it actually works.

I don't IMO see a prob with a spray canister and light close by but not right next to the pistol which is the only thing that has a change of saving your life.

Explain how some BG in your bedroom is worth betting a bright light or spray on will save you? Grab the pistol and know in complete darkenss that the only thing hanging off the side of your bed it the pistol. Seconds do count.

Then, pistol in hand, you can do the light/spray thing is that is an option.

Haven't we all seen the stories about police officers grabbing guns instead of Tasers? Well make it 2am, you in bed and you reach down and the first thing you touch is a flashlight because someone got into your home. Not good.

I'm all in for a canister and a flashlight but first thing first and unimpeded access to the pistol with nothing even close to it to prevent me from getting to it is what counts.



Where I'm really going with this is that there are lots of nifty setups, great looking holders, duty belt like hangers and how many people ever bother to test their ability to reach down and grab that pistol without something else getting in the way. Not just laying down on the bed but set an alarm clock and when it goes off and you are in a deep sleep see if the first thing you touch is the gun or something else.



*****************************

O a note about hallway gates. That can be a real cumbersome thing to have inside a house. Ther is another option:

House doors generally open inward. Note how in a business open to the public the exterior doors open outward? Thats to prevent pileups in an emergency where so many people are pushing to get out the doors can't be opened.

For the home though, your doors probably open inward. Not much you can do about that and even hardening the locks and hinges usually doesn't do much.

What to do?

A security screen door on the outside. It takes time to rip that off and then still be faced with a hardened entrance door. Don't get the el-cheapos, get a good one, the kind where its secure enough you could leave the solid door open in the evening and not worry someone can kick the screen in and enter. They aren't cheap but its a layer and layers are what gives you time and time is what keeps you alive. Put a door breach alarm on that exterior security screen door and you've have all the warning you can reasonably get without turning your home into a prison lookalike.

And one last thing:

New construction building code generally require motion/thermal activated lights in the hallways, at least certain counties do. This way the BG knows right where you are.

Now, where you have that pistol hanging off your bed or on the nightstand or in a drawer. Hook up and motion/thermal switch so that in darkness when you reach for that pistol a light shines away from you but toward the foot of the bed and outward. That way if you had visitors and they sleepwalk you light them up and can make the decision. It's pretty simple to setup.

.

[FalconLair]

That would be the last thing I'd use and the first thing I'd get rid of.

It's 2am and you need to respond. What are you going to grab having awoken from a deep sleep, pepper spray? IMO the only thing that should be there is the pistol so that you aren't fibbly fumbling trying to reach it. Looking at that setup it's just a mess waiting to happen. No matter how much you practice, when you reach for the gun there are two things right next to it, neither of which are going to do you much good. Even if you emptied the magazine, are you going back to grab the extra or maybe you unloaded all from the comfort of your bed.

Think these things through and don't fall for the marketing. Ask yourself some basic questions:

Can I get to the gun quickly without something else in the way (from a deep sleep or any sleep)
Why do I need spray right next to the gun - am I really going to grab the spray in the middle of the night and use that first?


But to that pepper spray. This comes up quite often, having the pepper spray readily available as if anyone here in a noon-LE event is going to have the time to decide which to use AND if the spray doesn't work still have time (because you know, now it's a lethal force event) to draw the gun.

Then you need to drop the spray canister and just where does it go or are you puttiing it back into the holster nice and neat? If you drop it then it's something someone else can use against you, like the jerk who happens to think you shouldn't have a gun and then they spray you. Ot; are you now going to have to watch the BG AND the spray canister and someone who is reaching for it?

Back on point with that setup. In what situation can you imagine reaching for the spray instead of the gun? In no event must you shoot, that is a decision you make. When you grab that spray you've already made a decision not to shoot but instead try spray. And what happens when it doesn't work? Seriously, what are you going to do?

There is no requirement for an escalation from hands and feet to spray to gun. You are not the police.

All people who carry spray when they have a CCW or as in this case, right next to the gun so that it's practically in the way is create additional danger to themselves. There is no "Well, I tired the spray and it didn't work so then I drew my gun" because if the spray doesn't work you're probably not going to be around to talk about it.

there are other options, some with only a holster type port for a firearm - i see no problem with a setup like this if you can manage it to your liking - i used to be a "under the pillow" guy for years

now i keep it simple, gun on nightstand table like everyone else

[FalconLair]

Because this was a hard working, honest young man, the media will not touch this story .
#1 rule of media covering a black man shot, injured or restrained is that man MUST be a THIEF, HOME INVADER, THUG DRUG ADDICT or someone who tries to flee and or retrieve a weapon .
i.e. Trayvon Martin, George Floyd.Mike Brown, Fredy Gray, Jacob (the rapist ) Blake. and many others.

RIP Amir Locke you were one of the good guys and if any lesson can be learned. Do not live in any big city run by democrats, either armed or unarmed .

doesn't really make sense when you think about it - you would think a kid like this, no blemishes LE could exploit, would be a perfect candidate for the message they've been trying to attach to these kind of killings

so much "mileage" you could get with the killing of this guy - almost a slam dunk

[IVC]

No difference.

Sure there is. Wait until the lightbulb goes off and you'll see the light... Or you'll sneeze. A lot.

[johncage]

doesn't really make sense when you think about it - you would think a kid like this, no blemishes LE could exploit, would be a perfect candidate for the message they've been trying to attach to these kind of killings

so much "mileage" you could get with the killing of this guy - almost a slam dunk

it's because he was a legal gun owner, it would bolster support for laws that protect legal gun owners. can't have that now can we.

[ja308]

doesn't really make sense when you think about it - you would think a kid like this, no blemishes LE could exploit, would be a perfect candidate for the message they've been trying to attach to these kind of killings

so much "mileage" you could get with the killing of this guy - almost a slam dunk

As I see it, using 1 specific example that applies nearly exactly to all the other case's media has exploited/lied about and misrepresented, to enflame inner city people to target cops and burn their communities.

Trayvon Martin's image was one of a handsome, smiling, well groomed 12 year old , visiting his Dad in Sanford Florida. An unarmed Martin was buying skittles for his little brother, when Florida cracker, wanna be cop gunned him down for being black.

The real story 6'1'' nearly 18 year amateur MMA fighter , was kicked out of his Miami HS and kicked out of his mothers house. A neighborhood watch guy see's this hoodie wearing guy looking around and calls the cops. ( NBC altered the 911 tape ) Martin returns to his Dads home and decides he will leave to confront Zimmerman. When he see's, GZ he asks," Do you have a problem" ? GZ says no at which time TM says you do now and attacks GZ knocking him to the ground, throwing MMA punches and bashing his head into the concrete walkway.

Luckily before having his brains spread out over the sidewalk GZ fires a striker fired pistol, that clips the thugs heart ending his life . ABC not wanting to be outdone by their pals at NBC alters photos of GZ head injuries, to make them less severe.

Mr Locke on the other hand was a good young man working a door dash job and a musician who planned on a music future .
Now how can the media have any fun, lying , smirking and misleading some very stupid people with Amir Locke ?

If they make Mr Locke out anything but what he was, they get sued . So its better to sweep this under the rug.
Wait until a thug attacks the cop , dies of an overdose while resisting arrest , escaping a rape charge ,or trying to flee felony arrest. The media will have him on a pedestal, an unarmed a victim because of his race .

Thats why Amir Locke will not get any media traction. He was the exact opposite of media thugs. He was gunned down while sleeping on a sofa by some hot shot cops.
These people make me sick!

[seaweedsoyboy]

So I ask seriously, if you take the spray out and it doesn't work your option is what?

As I said, escalating to lethal force is not called for in all defensive situations or for all sketchy encounters. If a gun is the only tool in your toolbox, you relegate yourself to either only posturing defensively in an overtly lethal or equally egregious attack, or escalating any unsavory encounter by immediately going lethal. So I ask seriously, if you draw your firearm and presenting it doesn't act as a deterrence your option is what? You've effectively turned what could have been an innocuous encounter into a lethal one, and carry all the ethical and legal implications that come with it.

Spray isn't instantaneous of compromised people and certain people aren't affected by it.

Neither is the sight of a firearm.

BG is going to attack you. First, if you are carrying a gun and the BG gets a hold of you the risk is he takes your gun, Rambo are exempt. But ok, you take out the spray. What are your hands or at least one hand doing, what are you looking at? Those are precious seconds and it's your life in the balance. You aren't there to apprehend anyone, you are defensive.

I don't think we're on the same page here and I don't want to risk just talking passed each other. "BG is going to attack you" is not the exclusive precedent that calls for one to act in self-defense. If bad guy is straight up going to attack you or is attacking you in such an overt, black and white manner then yeah, without the possibility of escape you're going to your gun. That's one of the many reasons you carry it. I'm referring to situations that are not as clear cut, i.e. you perceive someone is following you down an alley at night or you encounter an erratic person yelling profanities and swinging their arms at you, where in either case escape or evasion is not a viable option.

A Modlite in your pocket allows you to PID your perceived "threat" in the alley with no repercussion:

If it's just a dude walking to his car, great "my bad man!"

If its someone who was sizing you up as a potential target, great maybe the big black spot that will persist for the next 90 seconds in the center of their vision will convince them to reconsider their next move. If not, well you're now at a significant advantage and can respond accordingly.

If your illumination instantly reveals a weapon, also great you have the upper hand and can respond confidently.

Similarly, a spray canister in your pocket allows you to stage a non-lethal response if someone off their rocker decides to follow you and continue their tirade. Trailing and harassing you for a block, threatening open-handed gestures, etc are all acceptable reasons to maintain a defensive posture, but they're sure as hell not acceptable reasons to preemptively draw a firearm (presenting a weapon or aggressive hands-on physicality obviously changes all this). Palming the cannister in your non-dominant hand and seasoning them with some spicy air if they start to close distance is, again, a far less consequential and potentially deescalatory action/deterrent than immediately resorting to lethal force, and still leaves a dominant hand draw on the table.

Seconds go by. You could just spray and drop the canister and then draw but still, in that second or two someone close enough to be sprayed can close the distance with you and you are in mid draw, no one is that fast and now you are fighting for your own gun.

I think the above should have addressed this.

Remember, this isn't someone 30 feet away, spray probably isn't going to work anyway.

Somewhat irrelevant since drawing on someone 30 ft away absent presentation of a weapon is not going to work out for you either, in any context.

What is the purpose of the spray? No one seems to talk about that. What is spray going to do that you already drawn and ready will not?

Reiterating, other tools allow for defensive posturing when employing lethal force by being "already drawn and ready" is not an acceptable response.

If they were intent on harming your or killing you then lethal force is justified most likely so why spray?

Agreed, but AGAIN perceived threat =/= "they're intend on harming or killing you." We're talking options.

If the BG is that far away then you can draw and run too knowing you have the ultimate in self defense you can possibly have on your person.

Okay... you can still do that unhindered while carrying spray/light/blade.

SO, 1...2...3...spray no workie. Now what? Draw? If it didn''t work the BG is going to know it long before you do because the BG feels and you observe. Also, a determined BG who has gone through this before isn't going to stop from spray. Its a gamble and the stakes are your life.

Having a variety of tools at your disposal is about having options for a variety of situations. Carrying spray does not mean you have to first use it. I don't understand how that is not crystal clear at this point.

[ja308]

As I said, escalating to lethal force is not called for in all defensive situations or for all sketchy encounters. If a gun is the only tool in your toolbox, you relegate yourself to either only posturing defensively in an overtly lethal or equally egregious attack, or escalating any unsavory encounter by immediately going lethal. So I ask seriously, if you draw your firearm and presenting it doesn't act as a deterrence your option is what? You've effectively turned what could have been an innocuous encounter into a lethal one, and carry all the ethical and legal implications that come with it.



Neither is the sight of a firearm.


I don't think we're on the same page here and I don't want to risk just talking passed each other. "BG is going to attack you" is not the exclusive precedent that calls for one to act in self-defense. If bad guy is straight up going to attack you or is attacking you in such an overt, black and white manner then yeah, without the possibility of escape you're going to your gun. That's one of the many reasons you carry it. I'm referring to situations that are not as clear cut, i.e. you perceive someone is following you down an alley at night or you encounter an erratic person yelling profanities and swinging their arms at you, where in either case escape or evasion is not a viable option.

A Modlite in your pocket allows you to PID your perceived "threat" in the alley with no repercussion:

If it's just a dude walking to his car, great "my bad man!"

If its someone who was sizing you up as a potential target, great maybe the big black spot that will persist for the next 90 seconds in the center of their vision will convince them to reconsider their next move. If not, well you're now at a significant advantage and can respond accordingly.

If your illumination instantly reveals a weapon, also great you have the upper hand and can respond confidently.

Similarly, a spray canister in your pocket allows you to stage a non-lethal response if someone off their rocker decides to follow you and continue their tirade. Trailing and harassing you for a block, threatening open-handed gestures, etc are all acceptable reasons to maintain a defensive posture, but they're sure as hell not acceptable reasons to preemptively draw a firearm (presenting a weapon or aggressive hands-on physicality obviously changes all this). Palming the cannister in your non-dominant hand and seasoning them with some spicy air if they start to close distance is, again, a far less consequential and potentially deescalatory action/deterrent than immediately resorting to lethal force, and still leaves a dominant hand draw on the table.


I think the above should have addressed this.


Somewhat irrelevant since drawing on someone 30 ft away absent presentation of a weapon is not going to work out for you either, in any context.


Reiterating, other tools allow for defensive posturing when employing lethal force by being "already drawn and ready" is not an acceptable response.


Agreed, but AGAIN perceived threat =/= "they're intend on harming or killing you." We're talking options.


Okay... you can still do that unhindered while carrying spray/light/blade.


Having a variety of tools at your disposal is about having options for a variety of situations. Carrying spray does not mean you have to first use it. I don't understand how that is not crystal clear at this point.

Lots of good points and well thought out arguments. My #1 issue with spray is that years ago we tested several different delivery systems and none worked. If this has been corrected. I really like the idea of sending the BG elsewhere.

That said. most of us live in condition yellow and will not be a 1st choice, unless they take a liking to jewelry,GF or car .

You have put lots of effort into this, so what type flashlight and pepper spray would you choose to carry daily ?

[seaweedsoyboy]

Lots of good points and well thought out arguments. My #1 issue with spray is that years ago we tested several different delivery systems and none worked. If this has been corrected. I really like the idea of sending the BG elsewhere.

That said. most of us live in condition yellow and will not be a 1st choice, unless they take a liking to jewelry,GF or car .

You have put lots of effort into this, so what type flashlight and pepper spray would you choose to carry daily ?

Appreciate it my guy. That makes sense, I think formulae/delivery methods have improved dramatically.

I carry a Modlite PLHv2-18650 flashlight and POM pepper spray day and night.

[ja308]

Appreciate it my guy. That makes sense, I think formulae/delivery methods have improved dramatically.

I carry a Modlite PLHv2-18650 flashlight and POM pepper spray day and night.

Ive been shopping for a new light and am certain to carry it . The POM spray is ordered from Walmart online and is backordered.

Next will be drills to quickly execute deployment of my new tools . Thanx again.

I plan on calling the Minneapolis DA and ask for public trials of these hot shot swat killers .
Suggest others do the same. Having met retired Marines who were on NO KNOCK raids, 2nd and 3rd career choice's.
I abhor their predisposition to act like thugs wearing a badge .
Amir Locke should should alive and someone should pay for his murder .