Gun under pillow a death sentence

[seaweedsoyboy]

Ive been shopping for a new light and am certain to carry it . The POM spray is ordered from Walmart online and is backordered.

Next will be drills to quickly execute deployment of my new tools . Thanx again.

I plan on calling the Minneapolis DA and ask for public trials of these hot shot swat killers .
Suggest others do the same. Having met retired Marines who were on NO KNOCK raids, 2nd and 3rd career choice's.
I abhor their predisposition to act like thugs wearing a badge .
Amir Locke should should alive and someone should pay for his murder .

You can actually get the POM directly from their website, as well as inert training units which spray scented water to practice with.

I back that call 100%

[SharedShots]

As I said, escalating to lethal force is not called for in all defensive situations or for all sketchy encounters. If a gun is the only tool in your toolbox, you relegate yourself to either only posturing defensively in an overtly lethal or equally egregious attack, or escalating any unsavory encounter by immediately going lethal. So I ask seriously, if you draw your firearm and presenting it doesn't act as a deterrence your option is what? You've effectively turned what could have been an innocuous encounter into a lethal one, and carry all the ethical and legal implications that come with it.

When you are in bed and someone gets into your home, there is no escalation, the escalation has already taken place.

I think you're conflating LE encounters with those of the private person. What I have yet to see spoken about so far is anyone who actually trains in the use of spray and the various scenarios where it doesn't work and then has to draw. Try it and see just how you'd fare against someone close enough to spray but where the spray doesn't work.

I think the point about why people carry at all is missing here.

Neither is the sight of a firearm.

Oh yes it does. The sight of a firearm is very sobering and even for hardened criminals the sight of a gun pointed at them with a determines person holding that gun causes their brain to register that fact. I come back to the what if the spray doesn't work?

Take the effective distance at which spray works. Lets consider the typical canister most people will have. Its a stressful situation and unless I'm mistaken, most people will grab and use the spray canister with the strong arm/hand. It's a natural reflect. Kudos to the rare individual who uses their non-dominate hand.

Now you have a canister in your hand. You decide to spray. Explain how long you'll wait for the spray to be effective or for you to realize it isn't going to work? Again, this isn't LE work, this is private person and where the LE goes into the situation prepared, the private person is completely unaware until the event unfolds. They aren't dispatched to deal with a potentially hazardous situation. We have already seen in recent months/days how easily criminal take out LE and that when it's an ambush the LE often loses. The private person isn't walking around with any information and isn't responding to a call to see the woman with a gun or ball bat...it just happens.


I don't think we're on the same page here and I don't want to risk just talking passed each other. "BG is going to attack you" is not the exclusive precedent that calls for one to act in self-defense. If bad guy is straight up going to attack you or is attacking you in such an overt, black and white manner then yeah, without the possibility of escape you're going to your gun. That's one of the many reasons you carry it. I'm referring to situations that are not as clear cut, i.e. you perceive someone is following you down an alley at night or you encounter an erratic person yelling profanities and swinging their arms at you, where in either case escape or evasion is not a viable option.

When someone is following you down an alley you have no idea what they want. In that dark alley can they tell if you've pulled the spray canister or drawn a pistol? Very doubtful they can tell but the one thing that is certain, if you've now drawn your canister and pointed it at them they now have cause to say you went first and then they shot you.

Spray is never the proper response to a firearm unless that is all you have.

When someone is following you, waiting to see what they will do is not the answer. You become defensive because people follow people down alleys for a reason, usually not good ones and it isn't my job to figure out what they are doing, it's my job to defend myself. While that doesn't mean drawing on just anyone who happens to be taking the same route, I sure am not going to draw spray or a light when just doing that to someone who can't see clearly what is in your hand can and often will react as if you have a gun anyway.

The light is the same thing. In the dark, point a light at someone. Consider yourself as an example. You are walking down that alley and someone lights you up. What goes through your mind, they just have a flashlight or they have a gun pointed at you with a weapons light on it and the next thing will be you are shot? You have about no seconds to decide. Again, one hand is now holding a light, that leaves you one. If you are highly trained, ok, you might be able to manage it all but the typical CCW holder? Heck. half of them don't know what clothes to wear to an IA interview while some part of the remainder are still wondering what ammo to use.

A Modlite in your pocket allows you to PID your perceived "threat" in the alley with no repercussion:

If it's just a dude walking to his car, great "my bad man!"

If its someone who was sizing you up as a potential target, great maybe the big black spot that will persist for the next 90 seconds in the center of their vision will convince them to reconsider their next move. If not, well you're now at a significant advantage and can respond accordingly.

If your illumination instantly reveals a weapon, also great you have the upper hand and can respond confidently.

Anything that delays your response increases the changes you aren't going to make it. Drawing doesn't carry with it the imperative to fire. What it does is give you those seconds you don't have if you are busy with the spray or light (if it's not mounted). Reaching back down for the pistol takes time, time you aren't going to have and time any BG intent on doing you isn't going to give you. Again, you don't have to fire.

Anyone presented with someone pointing a gun at them and who still advances on you isn't there to play with you, they are there knowing the lethal force you have available and their continued attack (which is what it is at that point) gets you to decision time really fast.

Similarly, a spray canister in your pocket allows you to stage a non-lethal response if someone off their rocker decides to follow you and continue their tirade. Trailing and harassing you for a block, threatening open-handed gestures, etc are all acceptable reasons to maintain a defensive posture, but they're sure as hell not acceptable reasons to preemptively draw a firearm (presenting a weapon or aggressive hands-on physicality obviously changes all this). Palming the cannister in your non-dominant hand and seasoning them with some spicy air if they start to close distance is, again, a far less consequential and potentially deescalatory action/deterrent than immediately resorting to lethal force, and still leaves a dominant hand draw on the table.

There is no staging anything. I'm not sure where this comes from but there are all kinds of trainers out there talking about SD events as if it's come seconds from disaster documentary but that isn't how it work.

The BG intent on doing you isn't closing the distance in a few seconds, its one or two and if you don't think so there are plenty of dead people who'd argue that point but they aren't around any more. BGs don't start to close the distance, they do it so fast you aren't going to have time for that dropped canister to hit the ground.

If they don't close the distance and instead decide to just shoot? There you are with canister in hand or dropping it and trying to outdraw them. You are going to lose.



I think the above should have addressed this.


Somewhat irrelevant since drawing on someone 30 ft away absent presentation of a weapon is not going to work out for you either, in any context.

None of this is about 30ft, its an example. Try this: Put someone you know to be quick 30' away from you. You, the private person sense the threat but reach for the spray. At the time you swing up and ready to spray have them rush you. They are going to get to you before you can draw unless again, you're the one that trains all the time. Barring that, you are toast. You'll never get to your gun. Now, make it 20' if you want. Or 10'. Lets see if you can gran and spray and then draw in the time it takes Mr. Quick friendly to reach you before you get to your gun.

All this staging and escalation sounds great but it doesn't work that way and again, unless you are training very often, you aren't making it. People tend to over-estimate their speed and abilities. You're just not that fast.



Reiterating, other tools allow for defensive posturing when employing lethal force by being "already drawn and ready" is not an acceptable response.

There is no defensive posturing, that is train-speak. I hear this from time to time and in a clinical or school type setting it all sounds good. We're talking about the typical person who has a CCW (not so typical in CA but...) and the threat is seen and it's not staging, escalating or posturing. it's going to happen so fast you had better remember any training you have had and be fast and accurate. The faster than the BG gives you the time. Being slower makes you prone.


Agreed, but AGAIN perceived threat =/= "they're intend on harming or killing you." We're talking options.


Okay... you can still do that unhindered while carrying spray/light/blade.


Having a variety of tools at your disposal is about having options for a variety of situations. Carrying spray does not mean you have to first use it. I don't understand how that is not crystal clear at this point.

I beg to differ. This isn't about LE work where you need options. You waking up in the middle of the night with someone in your home, you walking down an alley where you are being followed isn't about options to escalate, you are already defensive, it was defensive the second you went to sleep or walked out of your door. There is no de-escalation, there is your defense to which the BG has to make a choice, continue to stop. It's not your job or duty or responsibility to offer the BG options, it's your duty, your job and your responsibility to defend your life - period.

Reverse the things you've presented about staging and lights/spray as options. Now you are the CCW holder walking down an alleyway. Someone is following you. So far the same situation you described except this time they grab something, it's black and they point it at you. Do you think they are trying to ID you? Do you think they are going to spray you? How long will you wait to draw or will you give them time to figure things out? You see, until you reverse an event staging, posturing and all that sounds good. Right up to the point they do it first.

These options all sound great in a classroom or some trainer lecture but that is far removed from the reality of what happens away from the dissection of a SD that only took seconds but filled 2 hours of discussion in a training situation.

Like seconds from disaster where they take an hour to explain what happened in mere moments of time, it's not how things work.

[SharedShots]

^^^ In addition:

IMO, if more people actually tried to use what they think will work when it comes to SD/HD and not from an expected and staged event but something where someone else controls the time and place (in the home) a lot of people would start preparing much differently than they do now.

It's not fancy rigs, holders and things like that. It isn't lots of options like spray or tasers and so on. Most will find that they aren't going to have the time to do more than grag their final best chance of saving their lives and second most effective isn't going to count for anything.

How often have we read/heard that saying about it's better to have a gun and not need it than not have it and need it? Well apply that to spray and anything else. With spray in your hand you don't have that gun. With a flashlight in your hand, you don't have that gun and apologies to those who train every day or at least every month to be able to use their weak hand to spray and their dominate hand to draw and be ready, you are the exception and not typical and hats off to you.

What you hear in classrooms all sounds great. What some instructor shows you look great. Stop right there and go try it as a run through and not some stop motion, analyze, proceed situation because you aren't going to have time.

Challenge yourself to actually do what you think you can do and you might find out much of it isn't going to work. Plates and targets just standing there aren't the BGs intent on doing you. Range sessions with do-overs and the step/analyze/step through process isn't real either.

Remember, nothing says you have to fire. Part of carrying or relying on a gun carries with it the understanding that some options really aren't options anymore. A fist to cuffs is no longer an option because the risk is so great the BG can disarm you and although we'd all like to think we can handle someone else, that ***-whooping can also turn into a disaster because news to many of us, there are plenty of BGs out there who can take you.

[ja308]

Thinking if BG is armed he gets plugged, if not armed but confrontational. Hit him with pepper spray if there is time.
It sure beats all that paperwork and possibly prison time.
I like the idea of more than 1 option and will practice quick deployment of pepper spray after drawing my legal handgun.

Of course the 1st line of defense is to use situational awareness and not get in that situation for risking ,life ,liberty and finances if a stranger needs help.
Considering 50 % of Californians would enjoy seeing us gone ,locked up or otherwise injured. This is a big decision that could have bad consequences with a Gascon type DA .

At one time I was hired as a bodyguard and on only 2 instances I felt like I might need to draw.
There is something about being armed,aware, trained and confident that discourages all but the most desperate or stupid .

Hopefully none of us will ever be put in a situation. FWIW I would help anyone wearing MAGA or Trump items and probably those who are obviously not capable of self defense .

My odds of survival are looking up greatly, as I only visit California on occasion .

[FalconLair]

We can argue all we want but...

the intent was to enter without the knowledge of the occupant - citing "officer safety" a judge signed off on the warrant

We should not.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/11/amir-locke-search-warrants-raid/

[Dan_Eastvale]

Police announcing themselves would have ended in 0 property destruction and one innocent person alive.
I believe no knock will always be the least beneficial.
Poor judicial decision making always seems to get written off.

[Newbshooter]

This story will never get traction like cases of bad actors who die at the hands of police .

https://nypost.com/2022/02/04/video-shows-minneapolis-cop-fatally-shoot-amir-locke-in-raid/

2nd degree murder is pretty harsh for a cop just doing his job and trying to protect himself, even if the no-knock warrant is unjustified. they were just following orders, this entirely different than putting a knee on someones neck.

Also what makes you so sure that Amir was "a good guy" because he had a permit to carry a gun?, he was staying with somebody that had a warrant, he might have known full well what this guy was up to. I don't know about you but I would never sleep in the house of a known criminal. Breonna Taylor got shot because she was hanging out with a known criminal too, she should have never put herself in that situation. Stop blaming cops for people's stupid actions.

[IVC]

2nd degree murder is pretty harsh for a cop just doing his job and trying to protect himself, even if the no-knock warrant is unjustified. they were just following orders, this entirely different than putting a knee on someones neck.

Protection goes both ways and the person who is in someone else's home is the intruder by definition, so the self-defense doesn't apply. If I hit someone and they fought back, I couldn't claim self-defense until it gets to the point where I am at a full disadvantage and no longer a threat. The act of self-defense by the attacked person doesn't immediately create a counter claim for self-defense by the attacker. Not by a long shot.

If I broke into someone else's house and claimed self-defense, I'd be in infinitely worse shape than, e.g., Kyle Rittenhouse, who was charged with the 2nd degree murder. The same should be for *anyone* breaking into *anyone's* house. Even if going after cartels, the act of self defense in their own home should not be an add-on charge. They should be charged with their original crimes, which should be plentiful and easy to prove by the time of the raid, but the actions of self-defense should never be criminalized. Not only because we have a natural right to self-defense, but also because criminalization of self-defense is what led to pretty much all gun control we have.

As a side issue, the "following orders" defense doesn't work. We've known this for over half a century now from the actual court cases.

[IVC]

Just to be clear, there is a big difference between resisting arrest and self-defense in the home against unspecified intruders who might or might not be the police.

[IVC]

they were just following orders, this entirely different than putting a knee on someones neck.

As for the knee, it was part of the training and it was taught as a valid restraint for that type of situation. It's exactly the same as "following orders" and this was one of the defense strategies - "the officer followed protocols."

The difference turned out to be the incorrect application of "orders," as the court trial showed, so officer was culpable. But that's a whole other story.

[seaweedsoyboy]

I'm just truly at a loss for words at this point. Your responses are baffling, in large part due to a hyperfocus on straw man scenarios like waking up to a home invasion/intruder and overt life or death/great bodily injury attacks, where obviously going for your primary weapon is step 0.

Carrying a firearm is an immense responsibility, and adamantly refusing to acknowledge there exist intermediate stops in a threat analysis schema between "not a threat" and "attack is imminent/occurring" where a light or spray serves a viable purpose all because "it isn't my job to figure out what they are doing, it's my job to defend myself" is wholly demonstrative of a mentality not up to par with that responsibility. If you are carrying a firearm, it is absolutely unquestionably 150% your job to not draw it on someone who you do not believe to be presenting you with the threat of death or great bodily injury. Your ability to put down fast and accurate fire is useless, not to mention dangerous without the ability to accurately assess who is or isn't a threat and who may or may not become a threat, and you can't do any of those things if you can't first positively identify what a person is doing.

When you are in bed and someone gets into your home, there is no escalation, the escalation has already taken place.

I think you're conflating LE encounters with those of the private person. What I have yet to see spoken about so far is anyone who actually trains in the use of spray and the various scenarios where it doesn't work and then has to draw. Try it and see just how you'd fare against someone close enough to spray but where the spray doesn't work.

I think the point about why people carry at all is missing here.

Oh yes it does. The sight of a firearm is very sobering and even for hardened criminals the sight of a gun pointed at them with a determines person holding that gun causes their brain to register that fact. I come back to the what if the spray doesn't work?

Take the effective distance at which spray works. Lets consider the typical canister most people will have. Its a stressful situation and unless I'm mistaken, most people will grab and use the spray canister with the strong arm/hand. It's a natural reflect. Kudos to the rare individual who uses their non-dominate hand.

Now you have a canister in your hand. You decide to spray. Explain how long you'll wait for the spray to be effective or for you to realize it isn't going to work? Again, this isn't LE work, this is private person and where the LE goes into the situation prepared, the private person is completely unaware until the event unfolds. They aren't dispatched to deal with a potentially hazardous situation. We have already seen in recent months/days how easily criminal take out LE and that when it's an ambush the LE often loses. The private person isn't walking around with any information and isn't responding to a call to see the woman with a gun or ball bat...it just happens.

When someone is following you down an alley you have no idea what they want. In that dark alley can they tell if you've pulled the spray canister or drawn a pistol? Very doubtful they can tell but the one thing that is certain, if you've now drawn your canister and pointed it at them they now have cause to say you went first and then they shot you.

Spray is never the proper response to a firearm unless that is all you have.

When someone is following you, waiting to see what they will do is not the answer. You become defensive because people follow people down alleys for a reason, usually not good ones and it isn't my job to figure out what they are doing, it's my job to defend myself. While that doesn't mean drawing on just anyone who happens to be taking the same route, I sure am not going to draw spray or a light when just doing that to someone who can't see clearly what is in your hand can and often will react as if you have a gun anyway.

The light is the same thing. In the dark, point a light at someone. Consider yourself as an example. You are walking down that alley and someone lights you up. What goes through your mind, they just have a flashlight or they have a gun pointed at you with a weapons light on it and the next thing will be you are shot? You have about no seconds to decide. Again, one hand is now holding a light, that leaves you one. If you are highly trained, ok, you might be able to manage it all but the typical CCW holder? Heck. half of them don't know what clothes to wear to an IA interview while some part of the remainder are still wondering what ammo to use.

Anything that delays your response increases the changes you aren't going to make it. Drawing doesn't carry with it the imperative to fire. What it does is give you those seconds you don't have if you are busy with the spray or light (if it's not mounted). Reaching back down for the pistol takes time, time you aren't going to have and time any BG intent on doing you isn't going to give you. Again, you don't have to fire.

Anyone presented with someone pointing a gun at them and who still advances on you isn't there to play with you, they are there knowing the lethal force you have available and their continued attack (which is what it is at that point) gets you to decision time really fast.

There is no staging anything. I'm not sure where this comes from but there are all kinds of trainers out there talking about SD events as if it's come seconds from disaster documentary but that isn't how it work.

The BG intent on doing you isn't closing the distance in a few seconds, its one or two and if you don't think so there are plenty of dead people who'd argue that point but they aren't around any more. BGs don't start to close the distance, they do it so fast you aren't going to have time for that dropped canister to hit the ground.

If they don't close the distance and instead decide to just shoot? There you are with canister in hand or dropping it and trying to outdraw them. You are going to lose.

None of this is about 30ft, its an example. Try this: Put someone you know to be quick 30' away from you. You, the private person sense the threat but reach for the spray. At the time you swing up and ready to spray have them rush you. They are going to get to you before you can draw unless again, you're the one that trains all the time. Barring that, you are toast. You'll never get to your gun. Now, make it 20' if you want. Or 10'. Lets see if you can gran and spray and then draw in the time it takes Mr. Quick friendly to reach you before you get to your gun.

All this staging and escalation sounds great but it doesn't work that way and again, unless you are training very often, you aren't making it. People tend to over-estimate their speed and abilities. You're just not that fast.

There is no defensive posturing, that is train-speak. I hear this from time to time and in a clinical or school type setting it all sounds good. We're talking about the typical person who has a CCW (not so typical in CA but...) and the threat is seen and it's not staging, escalating or posturing. it's going to happen so fast you had better remember any training you have had and be fast and accurate. The faster than the BG gives you the time. Being slower makes you prone.

I beg to differ. This isn't about LE work where you need options. You waking up in the middle of the night with someone in your home, you walking down an alley where you are being followed isn't about options to escalate, you are already defensive, it was defensive the second you went to sleep or walked out of your door. There is no de-escalation, there is your defense to which the BG has to make a choice, continue to stop. It's not your job or duty or responsibility to offer the BG options, it's your duty, your job and your responsibility to defend your life - period.

Reverse the things you've presented about staging and lights/spray as options. Now you are the CCW holder walking down an alleyway. Someone is following you. So far the same situation you described except this time they grab something, it's black and they point it at you. Do you think they are trying to ID you? Do you think they are going to spray you? How long will you wait to draw or will you give them time to figure things out? You see, until you reverse an event staging, posturing and all that sounds good. Right up to the point they do it first.

These options all sound great in a classroom or some trainer lecture but that is far removed from the reality of what happens away from the dissection of a SD that only took seconds but filled 2 hours of discussion in a training situation.

Like seconds from disaster where they take an hour to explain what happened in mere moments of time, it's not how things work.

[pacrat]

Also what makes you so sure that Amir was "a good guy" because he had a permit to carry a gun?,
he was staying with somebody that had a warrant, he might have known full well what this guy was up to. I don't know about you but I would never sleep in the house of a known criminal.
Breonna Taylor got shot because she was hanging out with a known criminal too, she should have never put herself in that situation. Stop blaming cops for people's stupid actions.

Both underlined statements presented as factual. ARE ANYTHING BUT FACTUAL. Both are not just inaccurate. Their lack of any truth, makes them FALSE.

Locke was sleeping at a friends apt. He WAS NOT sleeping at the apt of the SUSPECT named in the warrant. Who lived elsewhere. But the cops didn't know where. Locke was killed while the cops served 3 warrants simultaneously in that building on 3 different apts.

Taylor was sleeping in her own apt with her fiance. Who was also NOT the SUSPECT, named in the warrant. The SUSPECT lived elsewhere.

So how about getting your facts straight. And stop blaming innocent dead people. For incompetent cop's stupid actions. That got them killed.

[ja308]

Both underlined statements presented as factual. ARE ANYTHING BUT FACTUAL. Both are not just inaccurate. Their lack of any truth, makes them FALSE.

Locke was sleeping at a friends apt. He WAS NOT sleeping at the apt of the SUSPECT named in the warrant. Who lived elsewhere. But the cops didn't know where. Locke was killed while the cops served 3 warrants simultaneously in that building on 3 different apts.

Taylor was sleeping in her own apt with her fiance. Who was also NOT the SUSPECT, named in the warrant. The SUSPECT lived elsewhere.

So how about getting your facts straight. And stop blaming innocent dead people. For incompetent cop's stupid actions. That got them killed.

!00% accurate and these cops IMO are far worse than Derik Chavin who is the victim of greatest railroad job in recent history . Prosectors even getting the coroner to say Floyd did not have fatal levels of fentanyl in his system, after toxicology reports proved he was a dead man walking.
BTW some photos showed Chavin kneeling of Floyds shoulder, not his neck, but mob justice must take priority .