Bad FFL dealings...

[giaking70]

Hey everyone,
I wanted to share an experience I am currently dealing with and the state of affairs that transpired that has led up to this. Now although I am not looking for legal advise but if you want to chime is, please do. I am rather actually looking for some friendly advise as to where to take this and to whom.

So here goes...

Back in mid or late September, I purchased a firearm off of Gunbroker from a seller that is out of state. The firearm is California compliant but the seller is selling with restricted mags. Now the seller and I had agreed to have the mags shipped to our family home out of California and the seller had no issues with that just as long as they were not coming here. Now this kind of took awhile to get everything worked out as I had vehicle repairs and urgent family and work issues all going on at the same time, so was going through a bit of a rough time during the month of October and the seller was very sympathetic and was okay with the purchase being a little late.

Now during that time, I was also in the middle of DROSing another firearm and when I finally picked it up near the end of October, I had contacted the seller to inquire about the mags being shipped separately. The seller did not and the firearm was shipped with the restricted mags and it was an honest mistake on the sellers part and the seller even texted me saying "I totally forgot about that". So, I let my local FFL here know what was going on and informed him that a package was going to arrive sometime later in the week or the following Monday or Tuesday.

I got a call from my local FFL on that Monday and yes, the mags were indeed with the firearms. I wasn't able to get to my local FFL until almost a week later because of work and had to take my wife to see her aging father out of town. When I got back in town, I notified my FFL here and went to see him. We talked about what to do with the mags and I told him that there were my property and that I wanted to have them forwarded to our family home out of state and that I even offered to pay the shipping.

My FFL said "No, they need to go back to the original FFL". I stated that once they were out of his hands, he need not worry about them as they were going to another state. He still wouldn't do it. So by this time, I figured might as well be adult about it and have them returned to the original FFL. I understood the liability aspect from his point of view and figured there was no harm in sending them back to the original FFL and to get a return shipping label.

I reached out to the original FFL and let him know that I was going to be sending back the mags and he agreed once he received them, he would send them to our family home in Idaho. Fast forward...this past Sunday, the seller texted me asking if I had sent the mags back yet and told them not yet as yet again, had a urgent family issue with my wife's father who's 93 yrs old. I told the seller I was going to be taking care of it tomorrow (Monday).

Now I would like to point out at this time, I did not know anything about being able to print a shipping label online. Sorry if I am not a techie person but I honestly did not know. So, I went to the post office to get a small flat rate shipper box for the mags and went to the counter to pay for it. I told the clerk that I needed to ship some items back out of state and how much it would be to get a shipping label from this address to this address. She told me she wouldn't be able to do it without the actual items being in the box to get a proper weight.

So I thanked her and went to the FFL and let him know I brought a small shipper box we could put the mags into. He asked me where was the label. I explained to him that the post office told me they needed the items in the box to get an accurate postage. The FFL says that he couldn't just let me take them to the post office. I then said to him that why couldn't he just box them up and create a shipping label. He said he would charge me a lot of money. I said I would need to drive all the way back to the post office to see about the label and come all the way back. He says, you do that.

I asked how much he was going to charge me and he said I would charge you sixty bucks. I said seriously and he says that's for my time. I asked if he treated all his customers like that and he didn't answer. I told him that I am providing a shipper box to get this issue resolved and get it done the right way and you wanna charge me an upcharge of sixty dollars on top of the ten dollar shipper box I am already providing. He said yup.

I told him that this was ****ed up and that what he was doing was wrong and that it was bull****. So I left to go cool off as I was not having that at that moment in time. I then go back into the store to tell him I am sorry but this isn't working out and that I will not bring my business to someone pulling this crap and that I would like the gun and mags shipped back to the original FFL. He said to make sure to bring a label so we can put it on the box. I told him that I really didn't need his business but that he needed my business and folks like me to stay in business. I can find another FFL anytime. I said all this politely and professionally and as much as I was pissed, I just wanted my firearm and mags out of his store. May not have been the nicest thing to say but it needed to be said.

I leave and notified the original FFL and told him what was going on and that I was going to have the entire package sent back and that I was not going to be dealing with this FFL anymore. He said let me talk to them and I'll get back to you. I drove off headed for home. It wasn't even five minutes later the original FFL calls me back and say...holy **** that guy is an ******* and cant believe that he is even in business. I told him yeah and the way the FFL here treated me, I was even shocked that that had happened.

So I asked the original FFL about a return label and he stated that he really doesnt do those as he is a home-based FFL. So I said, sure no problem and when I got home, I could look into trying to figure out how to do a shipping label as I had never done one before. As we were talking, the original FFL said, hey man, why dont you just bite the bullet and pay his fifty or sixty bucks, get it over with because having the entire package brought back would incur additional shipping to another FFL here where I am. I told him, maybe but I really dont even want to go into that FFL's shop anymore. So I thought about it a couple more minutes and told the original FFL I would call my local FFL back and see if we can still do this.

So I call my local FFL back to see if he will ship the items and I would pay for his price. He said..."No, you do it yourself, you walk outta my place crying like a ****ing bitch, **** you, figure it out yourself" and hung up. I called the original FFL back and told him what just occurred and he said...you may wanna get those out of his store as soon as possible.

So I am at home and I spend the next couple of hours trying to figure out how to do a shipping label. I finally figure it out and was able to pay and print one out. I notify the FFL here and let him know I have the shipping label and if I can email it to him. He says yes do you have our email and I said yes. I sent it a couple minutes later in pdf and I had the absolute biggest goddamm headache after all that and took two Advils and took a nap. This was just after 3pm on Monday.

I woke up around 6:30pm or so and went about my business at home. It wasnt until later that night that I saw the FFL's email response...cant open it, print it out and bring it to us. Now this FFL doesn't open for business until after 10:30am...I am at work by then and I work 12-14 hour shifts and I am not allowed to bring my phone into the facility to make calls or whatever.

I emailed them back the next morning on Tuesday just before going to work and resent the shipping label attachment again. There response later...sorry, still cant open it, cant do anything unless it can be opened. I couldn't respond as I was at work and just didn't have the time. So, I resent the email again this morning Wednesday and I also sent it to a couple close circle of friends and to let me know if this document is able to be opened including a family member. I got all responses back saying they could open it and print it. But the FFL??...said again they couldn't open it.

Here's where the advise is coming in. Am I in the right to file a complaint with the ATF or any law enforcement agency to report that a local FFL is now withholding personal property because he wants to play mind **** games. My conclusion to that is this....I have emailed the FFL not once, not twice, but three times....and you mean to tell me that I can send a shipping label email to everyone in town but except this local FFL because he thinks its funny to just ignore the fact that he is now to my belief, violating my 2nd Amendment rights to my paid for property that to me, he is refusing to ship and also violating my 4th Amendment right to now illegal seizure and withholding of again, paid property he is refusing to deal with and ship back to a waiting FFL.

I am guessing the ATF would love to have a chit chat with him but I don't know. I honestly dont know what a law enforcement agency can or will do. I know this is also in regards to restricted mags but I am trying to do the right thing and just ship everything back to the original FFL but this local FFL is just playing frigging games.

So, any ideas on what to do....I'm going to bed, I'm tired, sorry for this being long. I may have left out maybe very little details but nothing that I can think of that would of mattered. So, good night, again my apologies this was so long...

[one*eyed*jack]

If it has Mondays date on the label, your postage is going to be stale and the PO wont accept it pretty soon. I'd say the easiest thing is to print it and take it to your FFL. If you really can't do that, maybe open it, screen shot it as large as possible and send him a .jpg or .png file. He might not be able to open that either it sounds like though. Just FYI, the bill of rights applies to the government, not a private business. Good luck.

[edgerly779]

Your seller screwed up and you did not handle it well. 5 minutes at post office kiosk would have given you small flat rate box printed shipping label and free box. Take to ffl and they put mags in and ship. 7 bucks. You apparently do not know how to solve problems. You were not legally able to take possession of those mags in ca

[tradecraft]

I cannot imagine running an FFL and having to deal with customers like OP je-sus.

[OCEquestrian]

OP clearly feels entitled to people's time and effort for free. Maybe he should have asked his mom to do it all for him.

[edgerly779]

Likely never had to do anything for himself. Couple minutes of google search would have given him options.

[tabascoz28]

[jeremiah12]

First rule, do not piss off the FFL you selected for the transaction, especially when the FFL has your items. In this situation he has all the power and if you piss him off, he can be a jerk, stick to the rules, and make your life miserable.

He does not have to complete the transaction and can say screw it and send everything back to the original FFL, after shipping is paid. Then you have to find a way to jump through his hoops to do that. So you might have to take time off of work to go down there during his business hours to get it done.

Paying his $60 fee is sounding like a deal now.

Had you picked up the USPS free express mail box (they come in different sizes) and gone to the counter and paid for a shipping label you would have been good. Those boxes ship for a flat fee based on box size. They do not ship by weight but by size. What ever fits in the box it still ships for the same price. The USPS would have put the label on the box and you would be out the door.

You would have taken the box to the FFL and all would be good. Next time spend a moment talking to the USPS clerk about what you need to do. This is how I discovered those boxes.

[smoothy8500]

Meh, looking at the op's other postings this is one of his common long-winded complaining sessions.....

[Oceanbob]

[sfe187]

Hey everyone,
I wanted to share an experience I am currently dealing with and the state of affairs that transpired that has led up to this. Now although I am not looking for legal advise but if you want to chime is, please do. I am rather actually looking for some friendly advise as to where to take this and to whom.

So here goes...

Back in mid or late September, I purchased a firearm off of Gunbroker from a seller that is out of state. The firearm is California compliant but the seller is selling with restricted mags. Now the seller and I had agreed to have the mags shipped to our family home out of California and the seller had no issues with that just as long as they were not coming here. Now this kind of took awhile to get everything worked out as I had vehicle repairs and urgent family and work issues all going on at the same time, so was going through a bit of a rough time during the month of October and the seller was very sympathetic and was okay with the purchase being a little late.

Now during that time, I was also in the middle of DROSing another firearm and when I finally picked it up near the end of October, I had contacted the seller to inquire about the mags being shipped separately. The seller did not and the firearm was shipped with the restricted mags and it was an honest mistake on the sellers part and the seller even texted me saying "I totally forgot about that". So, I let my local FFL here know what was going on and informed him that a package was going to arrive sometime later in the week or the following Monday or Tuesday.

I got a call from my local FFL on that Monday and yes, the mags were indeed with the firearms. I wasn't able to get to my local FFL until almost a week later because of work and had to take my wife to see her aging father out of town. When I got back in town, I notified my FFL here and went to see him. We talked about what to do with the mags and I told him that there were my property and that I wanted to have them forwarded to our family home out of state and that I even offered to pay the shipping.

My FFL said "No, they need to go back to the original FFL". I stated that once they were out of his hands, he need not worry about them as they were going to another state. He still wouldn't do it. So by this time, I figured might as well be adult about it and have them returned to the original FFL. I understood the liability aspect from his point of view and figured there was no harm in sending them back to the original FFL and to get a return shipping label.

I reached out to the original FFL and let him know that I was going to be sending back the mags and he agreed once he received them, he would send them to our family home in Idaho. Fast forward...this past Sunday, the seller texted me asking if I had sent the mags back yet and told them not yet as yet again, had a urgent family issue with my wife's father who's 93 yrs old. I told the seller I was going to be taking care of it tomorrow (Monday).

Now I would like to point out at this time, I did not know anything about being able to print a shipping label online. Sorry if I am not a techie person but I honestly did not know. So, I went to the post office to get a small flat rate shipper box for the mags and went to the counter to pay for it. I told the clerk that I needed to ship some items back out of state and how much it would be to get a shipping label from this address to this address. She told me she wouldn't be able to do it without the actual items being in the box to get a proper weight.

So I thanked her and went to the FFL and let him know I brought a small shipper box we could put the mags into. He asked me where was the label. I explained to him that the post office told me they needed the items in the box to get an accurate postage. The FFL says that he couldn't just let me take them to the post office. I then said to him that why couldn't he just box them up and create a shipping label. He said he would charge me a lot of money. I said I would need to drive all the way back to the post office to see about the label and come all the way back. He says, you do that.

I asked how much he was going to charge me and he said I would charge you sixty bucks. I said seriously and he says that's for my time. I asked if he treated all his customers like that and he didn't answer. I told him that I am providing a shipper box to get this issue resolved and get it done the right way and you wanna charge me an upcharge of sixty dollars on top of the ten dollar shipper box I am already providing. He said yup.

I told him that this was ****ed up and that what he was doing was wrong and that it was bull****. So I left to go cool off as I was not having that at that moment in time. I then go back into the store to tell him I am sorry but this isn't working out and that I will not bring my business to someone pulling this crap and that I would like the gun and mags shipped back to the original FFL. He said to make sure to bring a label so we can put it on the box. I told him that I really didn't need his business but that he needed my business and folks like me to stay in business. I can find another FFL anytime. I said all this politely and professionally and as much as I was pissed, I just wanted my firearm and mags out of his store. May not have been the nicest thing to say but it needed to be said.

I leave and notified the original FFL and told him what was going on and that I was going to have the entire package sent back and that I was not going to be dealing with this FFL anymore. He said let me talk to them and I'll get back to you. I drove off headed for home. It wasn't even five minutes later the original FFL calls me back and say...holy **** that guy is an ******* and cant believe that he is even in business. I told him yeah and the way the FFL here treated me, I was even shocked that that had happened.

So I asked the original FFL about a return label and he stated that he really doesnt do those as he is a home-based FFL. So I said, sure no problem and when I got home, I could look into trying to figure out how to do a shipping label as I had never done one before. As we were talking, the original FFL said, hey man, why dont you just bite the bullet and pay his fifty or sixty bucks, get it over with because having the entire package brought back would incur additional shipping to another FFL here where I am. I told him, maybe but I really dont even want to go into that FFL's shop anymore. So I thought about it a couple more minutes and told the original FFL I would call my local FFL back and see if we can still do this.

So I call my local FFL back to see if he will ship the items and I would pay for his price. He said..."No, you do it yourself, you walk outta my place crying like a ****ing bitch, **** you, figure it out yourself" and hung up. I called the original FFL back and told him what just occurred and he said...you may wanna get those out of his store as soon as possible.

So I am at home and I spend the next couple of hours trying to figure out how to do a shipping label. I finally figure it out and was able to pay and print one out. I notify the FFL here and let him know I have the shipping label and if I can email it to him. He says yes do you have our email and I said yes. I sent it a couple minutes later in pdf and I had the absolute biggest goddamm headache after all that and took two Advils and took a nap. This was just after 3pm on Monday.

I woke up around 6:30pm or so and went about my business at home. It wasnt until later that night that I saw the FFL's email response...cant open it, print it out and bring it to us. Now this FFL doesn't open for business until after 10:30am...I am at work by then and I work 12-14 hour shifts and I am not allowed to bring my phone into the facility to make calls or whatever.

I emailed them back the next morning on Tuesday just before going to work and resent the shipping label attachment again. There response later...sorry, still cant open it, cant do anything unless it can be opened. I couldn't respond as I was at work and just didn't have the time. So, I resent the email again this morning Wednesday and I also sent it to a couple close circle of friends and to let me know if this document is able to be opened including a family member. I got all responses back saying they could open it and print it. But the FFL??...said again they couldn't open it.

Here's where the advise is coming in. Am I in the right to file a complaint with the ATF or any law enforcement agency to report that a local FFL is now withholding personal property because he wants to play mind **** games. My conclusion to that is this....I have emailed the FFL not once, not twice, but three times....and you mean to tell me that I can send a shipping label email to everyone in town but except this local FFL because he thinks its funny to just ignore the fact that he is now to my belief, violating my 2nd Amendment rights to my paid for property that to me, he is refusing to ship and also violating my 4th Amendment right to now illegal seizure and withholding of again, paid property he is refusing to deal with and ship back to a waiting FFL.

I am guessing the ATF would love to have a chit chat with him but I don't know. I honestly dont know what a law enforcement agency can or will do. I know this is also in regards to restricted mags but I am trying to do the right thing and just ship everything back to the original FFL but this local FFL is just playing frigging games.

So, any ideas on what to do....I'm going to bed, I'm tired, sorry for this being long. I may have left out maybe very little details but nothing that I can think of that would of mattered. So, good night, again my apologies this was so long...

How do I get refund on reading this rambling chit story?

btw, you need an FFL more than an FFL needs you.

[Mr. Beretta]

I had to stop after reading 5 paragraphs.

I couldn't take it anymore!

[Rifle ronin]

Let's sum up, shall we?
Every time the ball is in your court, you have a family issue or work related issue that takes time.

So, when you have the time, you expect the FFL to jump through hoops on your time when the FFL is trying to run a business.

So, due to your inexperience with shipping items, you want the easy way out and want the FFL to ship it for you, which, by happenstance, is part of his business that he needs to make a profit on too, but you think it's too expensive to have that convenience.

Now you proceed to denounce his business practices and still expect politeness to your insubordination.

You need to rethink your expenditures if you don't know how to do the task.

[Duck Killer]

First of all second and 4th amendment rights are from the government. Not between individual people.

Second you brought in an illegal magazine into the state. You committed a crime. I think DOJ would like to chit chat with you about that.

Word of advice. Forfeit mag and pay the extra to get you gun. Do all of this before the FFL contacts the DOJ about this problem.

[Snoopy47]

How do I get refund on reading this rambling chit story?

btw, you need an FFL more than an FFL needs you.

Yea, I skimmed it.

I personally have a good professional relationship with an FFL then I stick by them.

The last thing one should do is price shop an FFL, then try and do anything less than a straight up purchase directly from the FFL

I'd would have send my FFL the purchase details ahead of time to get their buy in before I committed to the transaction.

Give up on the magazines.

If you have a pathway to acquire magazines outside of CA, then trying to break up a purchase of a firearm to multiple states to for sake of magazines is nuts.

I'm sure there are many here that would bay 500% mark up on magazines if we could acquire them legally.