Is there anyone

[pacrat]

How is someone able to differentiate between someone who is buying for someone else, or maybe someone who buys the gun for himself and doesn't like it and want to sell it soon after, or someone who is flipping the gun for a profit??

The answer is "INTENT".....For a prosecutor to make "Straw Purchase" charges stick. They have to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt". That the suspect had the prior intent to break the law, before they made the purchase for STRAW purposes.

In the afore mentioned Abramski case. The FBI was trying to stitch up Abramski on robbery charges. Failed, but uncovered correspondence with his uncle, making arrangements for, and payment of funds. Prior to the purchase and transfer to the uncle.

Which prior to "Abramski" was legal for 46 years. Since passage of GCA 1968. The verbiage of GCA 68 was to make it illegal to purchase a firearm for a "prohibited person".

After the Abramski ruling. Any purchase with provable intent/purpose of transfer to another is considered an illegal "Straw Purchase".

[johncage]

for every one conviction where a cop has impulse control issues and isn't careful and sold enough guns to qualify as an unlicensed dealer catching everyone's attention, there are likely dozens where they were careful enough to reduce the likelihood of catching or convicting them to practically zero

how they are going to catch a cop and his buddy who have only face to face conversations, both of whom reference straw purchases in a non direct manner with plausibly deniability. in casual conversation the buddy might says he is impressed with a certain gun. the cop, unbeknownst to the buddy, purchases the gun and uses it for awhile, shoots it at the range, goes as far as to make review posts on forums to record a gradual decline in favor of the gun. occasionally he'll also make remarks to witnesses to the same effect.

then on a certain day he'll announce in view of many witnesses, including his buddy, that he regrets the purchase and wants to sell it. the buddy knows what's going on and requests a ppt. the only way they get caught is it they keep doing this. but a one time thing? it'll never be found out

[I Swan]

I've seen LE get an off roster handguns
out of DROS and immediately PPT it to someone else in the same store! Or take delivery at Pro Force and PPT it to someone else the same day.

I never fully understood risking a career and pension for a few extra bucks. Also makes me wonder how many other laws they are willing to break and bend in the performance of their LE duties.

[AregularGuy]

for every one conviction where a cop has impulse control issues and isn't careful and sold enough guns to qualify as an unlicensed dealer catching everyone's attention, there are likely dozens where they were careful enough to reduce the likelihood of catching or convicting them to practically zero

how they are going to catch a cop and his buddy who have only face to face conversations, both of whom reference straw purchases in a non direct manner with plausibly deniability. in casual conversation the buddy might says he is impressed with a certain gun. the cop, unbeknownst to the buddy, purchases the gun and uses it for awhile, shoots it at the range, goes as far as to make review posts on forums to record a gradual decline in favor of the gun. occasionally he'll also make remarks to witnesses to the same effect.

then on a certain day he'll announce in view of many witnesses, including his buddy, that he regrets the purchase and wants to sell it. the buddy knows what's going on and requests a ppt. the only way they get caught is it they keep doing this. but a one time thing? it'll never be found out

All that time and effort just to make a few hundred bucks? Seems implausible. Why not work some OT or take a side gig as armed security? Legal and better money.

[9Cal_OC]

All that time and effort just to make a few hundred bucks? Seems implausible. Why not work some OT or take a side gig as armed security? Legal and better money.

Some agencies discourage armed security work.

Plus, flipping is tax-free

[AregularGuy]

Some agencies discourage armed security work.

Plus, flipping is tax-free

The flipping I understand being easy money. But I was specifically referring to going through the trouble of the whole plan of: posting positive reviews online, mentioning to friends how you feel about the gun, changing reviews online, making deliberate comments to friends that you no longer like the gun, then announcing very publicly that you no longer like the gun and want to sell it. All in an effort to "flip".

[Wheellock]

for every one conviction where a cop has impulse control issues and isn't careful and sold enough guns to qualify as an unlicensed dealer catching everyone's attention, there are likely dozens where they were careful enough to reduce the likelihood of catching or convicting them to practically zero

how they are going to catch a cop and his buddy who have only face to face conversations, both of whom reference straw purchases in a non direct manner with plausibly deniability. in casual conversation the buddy might says he is impressed with a certain gun. the cop, unbeknownst to the buddy, purchases the gun and uses it for awhile, shoots it at the range, goes as far as to make review posts on forums to record a gradual decline in favor of the gun. occasionally he'll also make remarks to witnesses to the same effect.

then on a certain day he'll announce in view of many witnesses, including his buddy, that he regrets the purchase and wants to sell it. the buddy knows what's going on and requests a ppt. the only way they get caught is it they keep doing this. but a one time thing? it'll never be found out

That seems like a lot of work. I've known people who buy a new car every 2 years (or more frequently). If I could sell a car for more than I bought it after using it for 6 months, I would have bought a lot of cars, just to have the experience of having different cars. I don't see why that wouldn't apply to pistols. Most of us have limited resources, if you are the type that likes the newest thing, it seems very reasonable to buy the latest and sell the last one frequently. Look at how many people do that with phones!

Now, taking delivery and transferring to someone else the same day, that is bone headed.

[SirRicky85]

Someone needs to know their firearm laws better. You should know that's illegal. Part of being a firearm owner.

[tanks]

I'm not sure if this is a taboo topic or not, but i was wondering if there are people on here that are willing to buy off roster guns for people for a fee rather than flipping them on calguns in the private sales forum like most people seem to be doing. And i'm talking like paying someone 100-200 for the effort. Obviously it would have to be someone you build trust with and are able to meet FTF at an FFL. I'm only asking because the prices that people are asking for the off roster guns just absolutely amazes me, like people charging 1k for a cheap $250 gun...

If this isn't a proper topic please let me know and i'll remove. But if not i'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.

It is both a Federal crime and a State crime. Straw gun purchasing is illegal on multiple levels.

[sfvshooter]

I thought idiotic posts were mandated to start with "I have a friend..."

[jtree91]

The answer is "INTENT".....For a prosecutor to make "Straw Purchase" charges stick. They have to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt". That the suspect had the prior intent to break the law, before they made the purchase for STRAW purposes.

In the afore mentioned Abramski case. The FBI was trying to stitch up Abramski on robbery charges. Failed, but uncovered correspondence with his uncle, making arrangements for, and payment of funds. Prior to the purchase and transfer to the uncle.

Which prior to "Abramski" was legal for 46 years. Since passage of GCA 1968. The verbiage of GCA 68 was to make it illegal to purchase a firearm for a "prohibited person".

After the Abramski ruling. Any purchase with provable intent/purpose of transfer to another is considered an illegal "Straw Purchase".

So how do the sellers in the private sales forum acquire these off roster handguns? And how is there so many for sale every day? Do they have a FFL? Some of the prices I see on here for guns SEEMS like people are flipping guns, especially when I see some of the same people posting again. What is there to protect people from getting in trouble by those who MAY be flipping guns?

[jtree91]

Someone needs to know their firearm laws better. You should know that's illegal. Part of being a firearm owner.

It's not like there is some magical fairy that comes with the purchase of your first firearm that tells you all the gun laws you need to know, even some gun shop workers could care less of what you know as long as they make a sale. I'm sure there are even more people now than ever since the covid pandemic that bought their first gun who probably never even shot a BB gun in their life, and you expect them to know such things as this?

[AregularGuy]

So how do the sellers in the private sales forum acquire these off roster handguns? And how is there so many for sale every day? Do they have a FFL? Some of the prices I see on here for guns SEEMS like people are flipping guns, especially when I see some of the same people posting again. What is there to protect people from getting in trouble by those who MAY be flipping guns?

Well, seems you missed several boats. Not intended to be snarky. Many who bought off roster pistols years ago are now selling due to supply/demand pricing. I have some I would like to sell, but would not have in years past. I am not in CA so too bad for me. See Not-All-Inclusive list below:

1. Many bought lots of guns during the "SSE 1" years. This was a way for FFL's to modify off roster guns to make them compliant with then-legal requirements. Once purchased you could modify the gun back to it's original configuration. This was a big one and no longer a viable option. This is how I got most of my guns. You paid a premium, maybe $100 plus the transfer fee, if any, from the FFL over whatever you paid for the gun. So a $599 glock Gen 4 might end up costing close to $800 + tax.
2. Some bought guns that were at one time on the roster but no longer
3. Some bought off-roster via PPT in times where there was less of a premium
4. Some moved into the state with off roster guns
5. Some have direct-line family members that generously gift them off roster pistols from out of state
6. Some will buy off roster pistols via PPT from exempt individuals
7. ??
8. ??

[9Cal_OC]

So how do the sellers in the private sales forum acquire these off roster handguns? And how is there so many for sale every day? Do they have a FFL? Some of the prices I see on here for guns SEEMS like people are flipping guns, especially when I see some of the same people posting again. What is there to protect people from getting in trouble by those who MAY be flipping guns?

Flipping guns is different than a straw purchase.

Flipping guns is more of an individual acting as an FFL without giving the govt their cut (by being an unlicensed gun dealer).

There have been people convicted of the latter (some cops) here in CA.

[A-J]

I'm not sure if this is a taboo topic or not, but i was wondering if there are people on here that are willing to buy off roster guns for people for a fee rather than flipping them on calguns in the private sales forum like most people seem to be doing. And i'm talking like paying someone 100-200 for the effort. Obviously it would have to be someone you build trust with and are able to meet FTF at an FFL. I'm only asking because the prices that people are asking for the off roster guns just absolutely amazes me, like people charging 1k for a cheap $250 gun...

If this isn't a proper topic please let me know and i'll remove. But if not i'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.

Well, Mr. ATF Guy, what you proposed is patently illegal, at both the state and federal level. It's called a "straw purchase" otherwise known as buying a gun that you fully intend to resell to another person.