Are you upgrading your 1-4 LPVOs?

[Full Clip]

I ordered the new 1-10 vortex.

Cha-Ching!
Wish I could afford one!

[SloChicken]

Where did I say I don't use the gradiations?

With a 10x, you won't even see the crosshairs at 1x, they're too fine. All you'll see is the illuminated ring and dot, or horseshoe dot, or horseshoe chevron. You might have a few illuminated BDC dots.

The fine lines and hashmarks only begin to appear when you begin to magnify. At max magnification, the illuminated ring and most dots will be gone. As I said, I haven't handled one personally, I can only go off of reports of people that have.

Once again, I suggest you read up on how a SFP scope will affect your POA vs POI depending on magnification. It's the difference between a hit and a miss depending on range and size of target. The delta can be quite large.

Any cites to help that theory along?
I have both FFP and SFP scopes. And am pretty sure of my opinions regarding what I prefer,
But if you have some information that shows SFP has POA v. POI discrepancies, I am all ears, as to now I have not known of such.

[k1dude]

Any cites to help that theory along?
I have both FFP and SFP scopes. And am pretty sure of my opinions regarding what I prefer,
But if you have some information that shows SFP has POA v. POI discrepancies, I am all ears, as to now I have not known of such.

Just do a google search. It used to be common knowledge.

It's not as big a problem today as it has been in the past. The quality of optics has improved dramatically in the past 15 years. But due to the inherent design of SFP, it can introduce a POI shift depending on magnification. Top-end scopes should exhibit very little error. But with less expensive scopes, the odds of error increase. Even with top-of-the-line optics, one can slip by QC with significant error. Some manufacturers have allowable tolerances when it comes to shift. Others don't.

[The War Wagon]

I run a Razor 1x6 on my SPR, but wouldn't feel "outglassed" with a 1x4 in my AO. Field of sight is limited to about 300yds in all directions where I'm at. If the flag goes up, defending the homestead will primarily be a CQB affair.

[shreddykruger]

I've got a 1-8 on backorder (midsouth has the strike eagles cheap ~275) but the 1-4 will go on a QR mount as a backup. We'll see how I like the BDC reticle, my 1-4 is mil crosshair with mil turrets which may be hard to give up, we'll see.

One thing that isn't being mentioned here about the additional range on a 1-6 or 1-8x is increased range for target identification. That's my main reason for upgrading the optic, not to shoot farther.

my 77gr reloads peter out around 675y which I have no prob making shots with my 1-4 currently but I would like to see the target better.

[MarikinaMan]

Where did I say I don't use the gradiations?

With a 10x, you won't even see the crosshairs at 1x, they're too fine. All you'll see is the illuminated ring and dot, or horseshoe dot, or horseshoe chevron. You might have a few illuminated BDC dots.

The fine lines and hashmarks only begin to appear when you begin to magnify. At max magnification, the illuminated ring and most dots will be gone. As I said, I haven't handled one personally, I can only go off of reports of people that have.

Once again, I suggest you read up on how a SFP scope will affect your POA vs POI depending on magnification. It's the difference between a hit and a miss depending on range and size of target. The delta can be quite large.

I'm not sure you've ever experienced that, or are simply repeating stuff you saw online. I did a search, and it came up as an issue back in the 90's, and it was primarily limited to low end scopes.

I have two SFP scopes currently a 2-7 for my 22 bolt gun, and a 1-4 on a carbine. The bolt gun has no issues hitting at whatever magnification all the way out to 200 yards. Thats on a 22lr firearm. The 1-4 is on a 5.56 carbine, and I shoot my own reloads. Not an issue at all.

So, per research, and my own experience, I dont have an issue with your issue.

I'm keeping away from the cost and weight of FFP, unless I intend to range my targets using the reticle and/or utilize with my turrets for dope and fine tuning.

[kriller134]

stop being cheap and just buy an atacr 1-8. you'll thank me later.

[kriller134]

Any cites to help that theory along?
I have both FFP and SFP scopes. And am pretty sure of my opinions regarding what I prefer,
But if you have some information that shows SFP has POA v. POI discrepancies, I am all ears, as to now I have not known of such.

I think what he's referring to is that sfp subtension values don't line up unless at max power vs ffp the subtensions are equal all the way through the mag range.

[SloChicken]

I think what he's referring to is that sfp subtension values don't line up unless at max power vs ffp the subtensions are equal all the way through the mag range.

I guess, but that goes without saying. or should ...

[k1dude]

I'm not sure you've ever experienced that, or are simply repeating stuff you saw online. I did a search, and it came up as an issue back in the 90's, and it was primarily limited to low end scopes.

I have two SFP scopes currently a 2-7 for my 22 bolt gun, and a 1-4 on a carbine. The bolt gun has no issues hitting at whatever magnification all the way out to 200 yards. Thats on a 22lr firearm. The 1-4 is on a 5.56 carbine, and I shoot my own reloads. Not an issue at all.

So, per research, and my own experience, I dont have an issue with your issue.

I'm keeping away from the cost and weight of FFP, unless I intend to range my targets using the reticle and/or utilize with my turrets for dope and fine tuning.

I've been on two hunts with darn good shooters that missed their shots with expensive SFP scopes. One was a deer hunt and a 400 yard shot, and the other was a sheep hunt with a 450 yard shot. Both realized after the shot that they had been glassing with the scope on lower power prior to the shot. Then took the shot without re-adjusting to max magnification.

Both scopes were tested for drift later. Both exhibited significant drift through the magnification range. More than enough to miss their shots.

Both of those hunters now only use FFP scopes. I learned from their mistakes. I also now only hunt and compete with FFP scopes.

I've also competed with people that couldn't get through a stage in competition. I ask afterwards if they're using a SFP scope. Most say yes. I tell them to test it next time they're at the range throughout the magnification range to see how much it drifts. I can't tell you how many times I've run into some of them at other competitions that told me I was exactly right.

So yes, I do have experience with it.

Fortunately, while hunting or competing, I've never forgotten to adjust my scope to the proper magnification when using a SFP scope. But I knew that I could forget one day - most likely at the worst possible moment. So I don't take the chance anymore. I've gone almost totally to FFP. I think I only have 2 SFP scopes left.

Take a long range rifle course. One that lasts multiple days with constantly varying ranges and conditions. You'll find out real quick the benefits of FFP over SFP.

[k1dude]

I think what he's referring to is that sfp subtension values don't line up unless at max power vs ffp the subtensions are equal all the way through the mag range.

That's only part of it. It's how a SFP is constructed. The second focal plane is placed at the 'zoom tube' (magnifying lens assembly) side of the erector assembly near the eyepiece (Ocular assembly). As you rotate the magnification ring and thus the zoom tube, movement of the tube can shift the POI of the reticle slightly as it rotates around the reticle cell. It depends entirely how tightly fitted the internals of the scope are. Sometimes, even returning to the same magnification doesn't return the shift to the same spot as previously. That's why some military snipers in the Vietnam era and post Vietnam Cold War era never moved their magnification after it was sighted in at a specific magnification. That's also one reason why fixed magnification scopes are still popular. A FFP plane scope isn't affected by movement of the magnification assembly since it's after the assembly on the Objective side.

This potentially inherent design problem is why I've switched to FFP scopes over time. Although, over that same time period, optics tech has improved dramatically. So perhaps I didn't need to make the change. But I still prefer FFP scopes so my hashmarks are good at any magnification should I forget to adjust accordingly. The only penalty is price and a bit of weight.

You should always test a new scope and put it through it's paces whether SFP or FFP. But if you buy a SFP, make sure to test for POI shift throughout the magnification range to make sure it isn't a problem. If it is, send it back.

[bug_eyedmonster]

I often try coyotes on a friends' property with an 18" AR, which had a 1-4x on there in SFP. I have a SCAR 17 I carry for pigs, which had a 2.5-10 SPF. I recently swooped up a Mark 5 3.5-18 in FFP, and mounted it on the SCAR, and kicked the 2.5-10 down to the 18" barrel AR. Now both have to be sighted in, and need to re-learn them. My 16" barrel AR has an ACOG on it now, and I LOVE that optic, and it's not for any type of hunting, so I'm at a loss as to what I should put the 1-4x on. This is when my wife gets nervous, as these types of predicaments usually end with me buying or building a new rifle.

I frequently hear the argument that more magnification isn't needed for hunting, and a trusty SPF 3-9x is more than plenty for game hunting. Additional weight, size, etc, all factored in, I would not trade the optic on my 7 mag (Mark 5 5-25x FFP) for a lesser scope after two years of hunting with it. Guys I hunt with say the same, and, it's a pain in the *** to worry about max mag in relationship to hash marks when trying to measure the size of game. More magnification helped me identify what was initially considered a spike to be a small fork at 230 yards on the last weekend of buck season. Something no one else was able to do with their 9x scopes and 10x binos.

Magnification works. When I was shooting my 18" AR at 200 yards, it was a tough shot at popping squirrels. With the new 10x, I can stretch it further. I don't see any real down side to it, a side from additional weight. If I was that worried about weight, I would bring a different/lighter rifle.

[bug_eyedmonster]

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/th...understanding/

I have to agree with this 100%, as the BAC has worked very well for me in carbine classes from 50 to 200 yards. My only issue was with the targets less than 50 yards, so I mounted a red dot on my carbine to help with this. I was shooting through a port of a barricade, ACOG partially covered, and was able to still make hits at distance with my left eye because I was leaning over on my left side, so that I could see out the port.

Jerry

[HKAllTheThings]

I've been on two hunts with darn good shooters that missed their shots with expensive SFP scopes. One was a deer hunt and a 400 yard shot, and the other was a sheep hunt with a 450 yard shot. Both realized after the shot that they had been glassing with the scope on lower power prior to the shot. Then took the shot without re-adjusting to max magnification.

Both scopes were tested for drift later. Both exhibited significant drift through the magnification range. More than enough to miss their shots.

Both of those hunters now only use FFP scopes. I learned from their mistakes. I also now only hunt and compete with FFP scopes.

I've also competed with people that couldn't get through a stage in competition. I ask afterwards if they're using a SFP scope. Most say yes. I tell them to test it next time they're at the range throughout the magnification range to see how much it drifts. I can't tell you how many times I've run into some of them at other competitions that told me I was exactly right.

So yes, I do have experience with it.

Fortunately, while hunting or competing, I've never forgotten to adjust my scope to the proper magnification when using a SFP scope. But I knew that I could forget one day - most likely at the worst possible moment. So I don't take the chance anymore. I've gone almost totally to FFP. I think I only have 2 SFP scopes left.

Take a long range rifle course. One that lasts multiple days with constantly varying ranges and conditions. You'll find out real quick the benefits of FFP over SFP.

Reading this, the Army side of me says that user training doesn't match the capabilities and limitations of the equipment.