Guy didn't like having an empty gun

[Packy14]

Yeah, you should work on that.

When he writes about safeties being manipulated with automaticity, that has pretty clear implications.

-- Michael

Clicked on your stupid link and read the article. Too bad no elite forces even have handguns with safeties. Do what you like. Personally I'm comfortable reloading on the move with guns that have no safety since I do it in competition. I own one gun with a safety and it's a 1911 that never sees the light of day.

[tanks]

WITH A RIFLE.

We are talking about handguns.

[rodralig]

I have attended classes at Front Sight, Gunsite, and with Massad Ayoob, and Bruce Gray. They all teach that the safety should be engaged and/or the firearm should be decocked before changing the magazine for a tac reload.

Hahahaha sure they do. No one is engaging a safety in a gun fight, just stop.

OTOH, Pat McNamara ( retired Delta ) did/does/advocates exactly that.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/07/30/gunfighter-moment-pat-mcnamara-36/

So YMMV.

Well, just to add some tinder... In JJ Racaza's class, he did tell the class that he does indeed engage the safety during a stage run...
I just can't recall what when he does it, but I can always send him a note to ask...

Again, to be clear - he didn't say NOT engaging them was wrong; it's just that he does use them...



In summary, use what works for you... Just saying...

_

[elSquid]

WITH A RIFLE.

We are talking about handguns.

Why is the advice only applicable to rifles and not handguns with a manual safety ( or decocker, for that matter. )?

-- Michael

[Packy14]

Why is the advice only applicable to rifles and not handguns with a manual safety ( or decocker, for that matter. )?

-- Michael

i dunno, only cuz it isn't. and its dumb.

[SG29736]

[QUOTE=rodralig;22729301]Well, just to add some tinder... In JJ Racaza's class, he did tell the class that he does indeed engage the safety during a stage run...
I just can't recall what when he does it, but I can always send him a note to ask...

Again, to be clear - he didn't say NOT engaging them was wrong; it's just that he does use them...

It would be interesting to hear under what circumstances JJ engages the safety during a stage and how often he does it. I believe he shoots Open or Limited with maximum capacity mags so only 1 reload per stage. I can't imagine shooting single stack or production and engaging the safety each time for 3 or 4 reloads. Maybe if you had an unusually long run between shooting positions and are running at top speed.

[tanks]

Why is the advice only applicable to rifles and not handguns with a manual safety ( or decocker, for that matter. )?

-- Michael

Different manual of arms? Decocking in the middle of a competition or a fight would really be strange though. Changing from single action trigger press back to a double action press is not something many, if any, would do.

[elSquid]

Different manual of arms? Decocking in the middle of a competition or a fight would really be strange though. Changing from single action trigger press back to a double action press is not something many, if any, would do.

I remember reading the account of a LEO that got into a gunfight with a bad guy. He won. A little while later, after interacting with responding medical and police, he realized that his SIG P-series gun was in his holster, decocked. He didn't remember decocking it or reholstering it.

In training though, his rule was whenever his pistol sights came off target and he was done shooting for the moment he would decock. After a while, it was automatic. When the SHTF, his pistol handling was something that he didn't need to think about. Safe handing was ingrained.

Granted, a lot of people wouldn't do that. Some people don't put in the time to be confident making DA shots, so they avoid them as much as possible. Others, especially in a competition, are looking for every edge to save fractions of seconds.

: shrug :

-- Michael

[rodralig]

It would be interesting to hear under what circumstances JJ engages the safety during a stage and how often he does it. I believe he shoots Open or Limited with maximum capacity mags so only 1 reload per stage. I can't imagine shooting single stack or production and engaging the safety each time for 3 or 4 reloads. Maybe if you had an unusually long run between shooting positions and are running at top speed.

Let me see if I can send him a note and ask him...

In training though, his rule was whenever his pistol sights came off target and he was done shooting for the moment he would decock. After a while, it was automatic. When the SHTF, his pistol handling was something that he didn't need to think about. Safe handing was ingrained.

Yep. Remembered JJ also saying that it was just practice to place the pistol on safety. Again, I will check with him...

That said, when I started in matches, I did ask some folks (in YouTube) if they decock their DA/SA pistols or turn to safe their 1911s, etc. between arrays. Everyone answered "No." But it still bugged me...

That said, I will be having another class with ITTS before the end of the month. I will add to my list of questions to Uncle Scotty and his cadre of SWAT if they switch to safe their 1911s.

Cheers,


_

[elSquid]

Yep. Remembered JJ also saying that it was just practice to place the pistol on safety. Again, I will check with him...

That said, when I started in matches, I did ask some folks (in YouTube) if they decock their DA/SA pistols or turn to safe their 1911s, etc. between arrays. Everyone answered "No." But it still bugged me...

That said, I will be having another class with ITTS before the end of the month. I will add to my list of questions to Uncle Scotty and his cadre of SWAT if they switch to safe their 1911s.

One more data point : Ernest Langdon's take on decocking:



About:

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/ernest-langdon/

-- Michael

[HooYah]

I remember reading the account of a LEO that got into a gunfight with a bad guy. He won. A little while later, after interacting with responding medical and police, he realized that his SIG P-series gun was in his holster, decocked. He didn't remember decocking it or reholstering it.

In training though, his rule was whenever his pistol sights came off target and he was done shooting for the moment he would decock. After a while, it was automatic. When the SHTF, his pistol handling was something that he didn't need to think about. Safe handing was ingrained.

Granted, a lot of people wouldn't do that. Some people don't put in the time to be confident making DA shots, so they avoid them as much as possible. Others, especially in a competition, are looking for every edge to save fractions of seconds.

: shrug :

-- Michael

NSW instructors teach operators to decock the SIG prior to any movement such as running with your pistol in hand.

[tanks]

...
In training though, his rule was whenever his pistol sights came off target and he was done shooting for the moment he would decock. .. Others, especially in a competition, are looking for every edge to save fractions of seconds.

-- Michael

I do have the habit of putting the gun on safe whenever i am done shooting. Do not do it during the course of fire at a match when moving or changing mags as that would add extra manipulations to the gun, and those fractions of seconds add up.

One thing also to remember is regular pistol competitions do not have a ton of movement either. In 3 gun you are moving with the pistol in holster (which should be on safe/decocked at that point) when it is a longer distance.

[SG29736]

I do have the habit of putting the gun on safe whenever i am done shooting. Do not do it during the course of fire at a match when moving or changing mags as that would add extra manipulations to the gun, and those fractions of seconds add up.

One thing also to remember is regular pistol competitions do not have a ton of movement either. In 3 gun you are moving with the pistol in holster (which should be on safe/decocked at that point) when it is a longer distance.

If I'm at the range I'll engage the safety when holstering if the gun isn't empty. During a match after drawing I never engage it between shooting positions. But my finger is always on the frame above the trigger guard when moving, reloading until I'm back to shooting. They watch pretty closely at matches. Just shot the Western States Single Stack match with about 250 shooters all shooting 1911s.

[phdo]

Tactical reload is a common thing. I practice it all the time.

[tanks]

...During a match after drawing I never engage it between shooting positions. But my finger is always on the frame above the trigger guard when moving, reloading until I'm back to shooting. They watch pretty closely at matches....

Yeah, as an RO my primary responsibility is to watch the gun and the shooter and finger in the trigger guard is a DQ in USPSA during movement and reloading so specific attention is paid to that to make sure everyone is safe. Double whammy is to point the muzzle up range while moving left while reloading and having finger in trigger guard. Saw that one only a couple of times here locally.